Scopas Tang Disease identification help

[MnFish1]

Things have been going well with the quarantine until this week. Suddenly lost a clown tang, hippo tang, six line wrasse, and powder brown (fast breathing and spinning), scopas (fast breathing areas of discoloration) and Kole (some discoloration) tangs are looking rough. Coppersafe has been at a constant 2.0ppm verified by Hanna checker the whole time and ran 3 rounds of prazipro. Ammonia is 0 according to the ammonia alert badge. What could come out of the blue and kill/infect all the fish this quickly, bacterial, brook, bad badge and ammonia? (clownfish is fine, as are all angelfish)? I attached videos.

It could be velvet - your copper is just at the borderline. It could also be a disease not treatable with copper. It could be oxygen related. It could be another toxin. Also possible that your badge is not working correctly. Unfortunately, I can't see the pictures. Is there anything that looks like a bacterial issue (torn fins, reddish coloring?)

Though many people (in other threads) have stated that it's safe to use copper with prazipro - others have said it's not a good idea. (its unclear whether you used the 2 together) - also heavy aeration is needed with Prazipro.

 

[bfiebs002]

It could be velvet - your copper is just at the borderline. It could also be a disease not treatable with copper. It could be oxygen related. It could be another toxin. Also possible that your badge is not working correctly. Unfortunately, I can't see the pictures. Is there anything that looks like a bacterial issue (torn fins, reddish coloring?)

Though many people (in other threads) have stated that it's safe to use copper with prazipro - others have said it's not a good idea. (its unclear whether you used the 2 together) - also heavy aeration is needed with Prazipro.

thank you for the quick reply! I was under the impression that 2.0ppm is the max dose for coppersafe, while copper power was 2.5ppm. The hippo tang was spazzing out trying to jump with very rapid breathing prior to death, skin and fins looked flawless. The powder brown looks flawless (no spots or patches anywhere) but has a high respiration rate, and fins are rapidly dissolving and swims in circles/lays during night and doesn’t eat, Kole tang has what appears to be extra mucous in some areas, and scopas has mucus and patches in a lot of areas. Last prazi dose was about 2.5-3weeks ago and I have considerable oxygen exchange. I can try attaching pictures again if the videos and pictures didn’t come through last time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

thank you for the quick reply! I was under the impression that 2.0ppm is the max dose for coppersafe, while copper power was 2.5ppm. The hippo tang was spazzing out trying to jump with very rapid breathing prior to death, skin and fins looked flawless. The powder brown looks flawless (no spots or patches anywhere) but has a high respiration rate, and fins are rapidly dissolving and swims in circles/lays during night and doesn’t eat, Kole tang has what appears to be extra mucous in some areas, and scopas has mucus and patches in a lot of areas. Last prazi dose was about 2.5-3weeks ago and I have considerable oxygen exchange. I can try attaching pictures again if the videos and pictures didn’t come through last time.

A full dose for coppersafe is 2.25 ppm, and sometimes you need to go to 2.5 for serious infections.

The rapid breathing sure looks like velvet, but the blotchy skin on the scopas does not.

Are some fish completely symptom free?

Acute bacterial infections are very rare, but it could be that.

 

[bfiebs002]

A full dose for coppersafe is 2.25 ppm, and sometimes you need to go to 2.5 for serious infections.

The rapid breathing sure looks like velvet, but the blotchy skin on the scopas does not.

Are some fish completely symptom free?

Acute bacterial infections are very rare, but it could be that.

Yes the Koran, queen, bicolor, and coral beauty angel are symptom free, as are the couple damsels and pseudochromis. This seems to really just be wrecking havoc on the tangs and wrasse and went from nothing to this overnight. I wouldn’t think velvet would do that after 35 days in copper with no velvet symptoms to begin with. But stranger things have happened. The Kole tang was impossible to get a good picture but looks like a less severe version of the scopas

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes the Koran, queen, bicolor, and coral beauty angel are symptom free, as are the couple damsels and pseudochromis. This seems to really just be wrecking havoc on the tangs and wrasse and went from nothing to this overnight. I wouldn’t think velvet would do that after 35 days in copper with no velvet symptoms to begin with. But stranger things have happened. The Kole tang was impossible to get a good picture but looks like a less severe version of the scopas

Thanks, one more question - have you treated for flukes at all?

 

[bfiebs002]

Thanks, one more question - have you treated for flukes at all?

Yes, The 3 rounds of prazipro 5 days apart which ended 2.5-3 weeks ago should have handled those (so I hope)

 

[bfiebs002]

Yes, The 3 rounds of prazipro 5 days apart which ended 2.5-3 weeks ago should have handled those (so I hope)

Only thing I changed recently was fed more than usual and added metro with focus (.5 dose in half tbsp of frozen food). Which is why I kind of suspected an ammonia spike but the badge never changed. I have a feeling I should have just left everything in the main tank and managed the ich… after being in saltwater tanks for 20+ years this is finally making me think of breaking everything down.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Only thing I changed recently was fed more than usual and added metro with focus (.5 dose in half tbsp of frozen food). Which is why I kind of suspected an ammonia spike but the badge never changed. I have a feeling I should have just left everything in the main tank and managed the ich… after being in saltwater tanks for 20+ years this is finally making me think of breaking everything down.

You should never mix meds in food/focus unless you calculate a proper dose. However, metronidazole can’t really be overdosed - it is so bitter that if you use too much, the fish just won’t eat it.

We do have a med food calculator and an article in the fish disease forum sticky section if you ever want to use oral meds in the future.

 

[bfiebs002]

Woke up to the Powder brown and mimic tang dead and scopas and Kole looking worse, changed the light color and got some better pics, fish have been in 2.0-2.05 coppersafe for a month and a half it never dropped below that, and underwent 3 prazi treatments now this popped out of nowhere and has killed 6 fish so far with more on the way out no clue what it is, took a scrape under the microscope and only thing I noticed were jittering dots to small to see at 1000x magnification and a few bigger things with hairs around it that can move a bit quicker (picture attached). Any help will be appreciated! Current tank status is coppersafe at 2.1(slowly upping to 2.25) and kanaplex.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Woke up to the Powder brown and mimic tang dead and scopas and Kole looking worse, changed the light color and got some better pics, fish have been in 2.0-2.05 coppersafe for a month and a half it never dropped below that, and underwent 3 prazi treatments now this popped out of nowhere and has killed 6 fish so far with more on the way out no clue what it is, took a scrape under the microscope and only thing I noticed were jittering dots to small to see at 1000x magnification and a few bigger things with hairs around it that can move a bit quicker (picture attached). Any help will be appreciated! Current tank status is coppersafe at 2.1(slowly upping to 2.25) and kanaplex.

Sorry to hear that!

The "small jittering spots" at 1000x is probably what they call "Brownian Motion" - I used to think it was caused by the motion of motile bacteria, but my old curator told me that even sterile fluids will show that.

The protozoan isn't clear enough to tell what it is. However, if there were just a few, and if the fish was already dead and had been on the bottom of the tank, it may just be a scavenging protozoan. On the other hand, if you see lots of them, on a live fish, then they are probably Brooklynella, and that would explain why the copper isn't working - those need formalin to control them.

 

[bfiebs002]

Sorry to hear that!

The "small jittering spots" at 1000x is probably what they call "Brownian Motion" - I used to think it was caused by the motion of motile bacteria, but my old curator told me that even sterile fluids will show that.

The protozoan isn't clear enough to tell what it is. However, if there were just a few, and if the fish was already dead and had been on the bottom of the tank, it may just be a scavenging protozoan. On the other hand, if you see lots of them, on a live fish, then they are probably Brooklynella, and that would explain why the copper isn't working - those need formalin to control them.

Just an update, I went out and snagged another tank, rally pro (formalin not available around my location) and gave all the fish a 90 min bath with 1tsp per gallon concentration. After the bath transferred them to the new tank that has new saltwater with no copper and a dose of metro in it. This seems to be the best treatment I had available for Brook or bacterial infection. Woke up today and all fish looking better, still higher than normal respiration on the scopas and Kole tangs but their skin looks better and respiration came down a little from what it was prior. Do you know if more than one rally pro bath is required or is it normally just the one bath and use metro for 2 weeks to ensure all brook is gone? Thanks!

 

[bfiebs002]

Spoke to soon lost another fish and took an immediate scrape, lots of little Protozoa zipping around including pictures and videos is this brook? Thanks!

 

[bfiebs002]

Spoke to soon lost another fish and took an immediate scrape, lots of little Protozoa zipping around including pictures and videos is this brook? Thanks!

A few more closer up pictures and videos (1000x, previous was 400x)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry, I’ve been driving all day, just stopped for the night.

I can’t tell if these are Brook or not, these look too elongate and they are green in color.

The other concern is if there were this many protozoans AFTER a Rally dip, it didn’t really help.

Jay

 

[bfiebs002]

Did some more research, could all those hairlike things in the scrape under high magnification be bacteria?

Sorry, I’ve been driving all day, just stopped for the night.

I can’t tell if these are Brook or not, these look too elongate and they are green in color.

The other concern is if there were this many protozoans AFTER a Rally dip, it didn’t really help.

Jay

No worries, hope you have a safe trip! The rally pro didn’t seem to help at all, symptoms seem to be rapid breathing, the splotchy white mucus film and rapid fin disintegration, then death all this within a day or so of first symptoms, copper didn’t effect it nor rally pro and metro, totally at a loss, I saw a lot of hair like strands in the microscope perhaps something bacterial?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Did some more research, could all those hairlike things in the scrape under high magnification be bacteria?

No worries, hope you have a safe trip! The rally pro didn’t seem to help at all, symptoms seem to be rapid breathing, the splotchy white mucus film and rapid fin disintegration, then death all this within a day or so of first symptoms, copper didn’t effect it nor rally pro and metro, totally at a loss, I saw a lot of hair like strands in the microscope perhaps something bacterial?

There are some bacteria that grow in long threads, but I’ve mostly seen those in freshwater fish (Columnaris disease). I can’t recall seeing them in marine fish ….

 

[bfiebs002]

Thanks for all the help Jay, thinking at this point all I can do is let it run its course and hope for the best.

 

[bfiebs002]

There are some bacteria that grow in long threads, but I’ve mostly seen those in freshwater fish (Columnaris disease). I can’t recall seeing them in marine fish ….

 

[bfiebs002]

@Jay Hemdal I did another 90min rally pro bath last night and cleaned the tank and did a 100% water change while everything was in the bath, scopas and Koran look better and skin going back to natural color and it seems the tomini tang is shedding a lot of mucus/white film. Would you suspect brook or some aggressive bacterial infection? Doesn’t look like velvet to me and wouldn’t make sense for velvet to appear out of the blue after 1.5 months of copper at therapeutic levels sent pictures of the tomini in the above reply. Thanks again!

 

[bfiebs002]

A few more pictures after waiting around for some better shots, seems to have a huge bulge in the middle of the body as well.