secret to no algae on sand bed

[heliguy71]

algae

how do i know if i have a nutrient issue.what test kits are accurate right now phosphate and nitrate are very low almost 0.i only feed once a day frozen food and not very much.my sand bed is about 2 to 3 inches deep.

 

[jlinzmaier]

how do i know if i have a nutrient issue.what test kits are accurate right now phosphate and nitrate are very low almost 0.i only feed once a day frozen food and not very much.my sand bed is about 2 to 3 inches deep.

If you have excess nuisance algea growth then you have excess nutrients. It's that simple.

Forget the test kits. If you really want to get more accurate numbers you can buy a photometer for nitrate and phosphate detection, but they are also slightly inaccurate at low levels (but far better than any other hobby grade kit). Even if you find out what the exact levels are, the treatment suggestions aren't going to change much. Regardless of what any test kit tells you, the treatment for excess nutrients will be pretty much the same.

Frozen food preservatives are contained in many frozen food preperations. Foods like frozen mysis and frozen brine are best if they are rinsed before use becuase that rinses off the perservatives or gel binders which often contain lot's of phosphate. Foods like rods food or formula one, which are a mixture of various foods, should not be rinsed because you will wash away many of the small foods contained in the mixture.

Do a simple test on your sand bed. Stir up a small portion and see if a lot of dust and detritus gets stirred up. If so, then it will help to siphon your sandbed on a routine basis (not all at once - only a small portion at one time) and it will be beneficial to add some sand sifting critters to keep the detritus from settling back in.

Do you target feed or just dump the food into the tank? If you feed the frozen food from a feeder there is often less that gets wasted and less fodd is prevented from being able to settle into the rockwork or sandbed (a turkey baster is a simple tool for that).

Unless you get an accurate reading of your po4 then it will be hard to tell when you GFO is exhausted. Maybe someone nearby can do some testing with a photometer. Again, keep in mind that the true amount in the water column can be masked becuase algea growth can take it up before it becomes dense enough to become detectable.

Pictures will certainly help to determine if you've got cyano or diatoms or just what is growing, but the fix is all pretty much the same - manage the nutrients (the exception here is if your only dealing with an outbreak of diatoms). As spike said, diatom growth can be fueled by excess silicates which you mentioned to have high levels of.

An ATS (algea turf scrubber) is a great means of nutrient export.

Carbon source dosing (bacterial proliferation) with vodka, vinegar, sugar, vitamin C, etc....takes great care when using, but can be an effective means of removing excess nutrients in conjuction with other methods of nutrient management.

Ozone use is a very common means of breaking down organics which is thought to then make them more easily skimmed out or converted into molecules that are more easily bound to GAC or GFO.

How often do you do water changes?? How much??

How much carbon and what brand do you use?? Maybe you need to use a stronger or larger amount of carbon.

Do you grow any macroalgae?? That is an excellent means of nutrient export.

What type of skimmer?? What's the tank volume rating?

What's the tank size and total water volume??

How many fish?? How big??

Do you feed any coral food or any other addatives??

Are you using RO/DI water or something else? The most common source of silicates is in tap water or leaching from exhausted DI cartridges.

Take a turkey baster and blast at the rock a bit. Does a lot of detritus get blown off?? If so that's a good indication that flow in that area isn't sufficient enough to keep the waste particles suspended (which will eventually get them to the overflow or filter intake where it can be removed). Most of us have a few small areas where this detritus builds up, but if your finding that you can blow dust off of a lot or surfaces of the rock then you might want to consider more flow in alternating directions. Even if you've got a 10 gallon tank and a 300 gph powerhead (30X turnover) the flow will be ineffective at suspending detritus throughout the entire tank becuase it flows in one direction. More flow in multiple areas will help limit dead zones which will be helpful in preventing the decomposition of the waste that settles in those areas.

I can give you general ideas all day, but if you answer those few questions I listed, we can all help get you a more detailed plan for managing the excess nutrients.

Jeremy

 

[heliguy71]

water changes every two weeks -20 gals each time
tank-120gallon with 30 gallon sump
fish -6 most are gobies
turboflotor 1000 skimmer-rated for 250 gallons
yes chaeto in sump
carbon-rena 3-packs-
i put coral vital in every three days
i use r/o water-does not have di catridge-3 stage
i feed once a day-with a syringe not that much
sand bed was replaced on sep 29 2009.i replaced it.i had crushed coral,so the sand bed is only 5 months old

 

[jlinzmaier]

In regards to sifting stars, I was able to keep two alive in a 180 for well over two years. The last 6 months was even after I converted to a bare bottom.

I think the only reason they stayed alive that long was becuase that was when I pretty much had no idea that I was creating a nutrient sink in my sandbed with poor flow and an overstocked tank (we all learn as we go). The stars even seemed to be doing well once converted to bare bottom and they were always over areas where the detritus collected. One day they looked healthy and happy and then one day one seemed to disappear then a few weeks later the other was gone as well. I suspect my coral banded found them as a nice snack that was easy to catch. My coral banded has eaten many slow moving critters!

If stocked properly, I think a sand sifting star can easily be kept in captivity, but they will eat a lot of the animals within the sand bed that funtion to eat and manage detritus that settles in.

Jeremy

 

[Jhildebrand]

Ok ok, going to have to disagree on the stars Jeremy... Yes, we certainly could keep them alive, but you'd need a large DSB and you'd have to regularly buy critter recharge kits or exchange new sand with lots of life in it to make it work. Either way, it's detrimental to why you would have a DSB in the first place. Even two years is not even close to the lifespan of these animals and almost all of them will sucumb to starvation long before that. What information are you basing this recommendation on? The info on keeping this species is decidedly negative....I know you do your homework, please show me.

 

[jlinzmaier]

How much and how often are you thinning the chaeto??

IMO, the skimmer could definately be upgraded. I bought a turbofloated and ran it for about a day until I decided it was junk. No offense, just a thought that improving the skimmer will be very beneficial.

Your water changes could be imporoved. Larger and more frequent water changes could only help.

Rena 3 pack??? That sounds like a penguin filter. If that's the case then you may as well be using nothing. I hate penguin filters and think they are used best for a kids goldfish tank - not a reef tank. A canister filter or fluidized filter with some ROX carbon would be 100X better than penguin filter.

Forget the coral vital. I will never use anything made by Marc Weiss. Do some google seaches on Marc Weiss product feedback or check with some reef chemists on various forums and you'll find out how good Marc Weiss products really are. His crap is a good as tap water. Any trace elements will be replenished with water changes unless your tank is packed with corals that are growing at a spectacular rate.

Consider a DI cartridge on your water filtration. The use of only RO water will still allow small amounts of trace elements and nutrients through. The DI cartridge will make a big difference and remove the remaining substances that make it through the membrane.

Crushed coral isn't the best choice for substrate IMO. It's well known that the larger the particles of a sand bed the easier it is for detritus to accumulate. Stir up a few spots and see what comes out. if there is lots of crap that gets stirred up then you need to keep up with some good husbandry on the sandbed.

The flow you mentioned for a 120 seems very small. I'm not extremely familiar with the equipment you listed, but remember that more flow is better. I would never run a tank with less than 30X turnover with alternating flow making sure to cover all areas and limiting as many deadpots as possible.

Any or all of those ideas will only help limit excess nutrients. Also, keep in mind that nutrients can leach from the rock the same as they can from a poorly managed sand bed. Detritus packs into the crevices and may get partially bound with some calcification or corraline growth. As nutrient levels within the water column decrease, the nutrients will leach from the rockwork and sandbed by means of osmosis. Ionic charge and the process of molecular equilibrium will pull nutrients from the rockwork into the water column. This may take months or years for rock to become exhausted of excess nutrients if the tank/rock has been poorly managed.

Hope that helps.

If you have further questions don't hesitate to speak up.

Jeremy

 

[jlinzmaier]

Ok ok, going to have to disagree on the stars Jeremy... Yes, we certainly could keep them alive, but you'd need a large DSB and you'd have to regularly buy critter recharge kits or exchange new sand with lots of life in it to make it work. Either way, it's detrimental to why you would have a DSB in the first place. Even two years is not even close to the lifespan of these animals and almost all of them will sucumb to starvation long before that. What information are you basing this recommendation on? The info on keeping this species is decidedly negative....I know you do your homework, please show me.

I agree that they are not a good choice for many reasons. I just indicated that I was able to keep two alive for 2 years and I think if I hadn't gone bare bottom on the tank they may have been able to get away from any predators as well as having a continued food source (I bought them without doing any reasearch - bad choice on my part). My indication that they can be kept in captivitiy isn't untrue by any means but you would need to cater to their needs. Like you said, they would eat most of the benficial critters from the sandbed, but I have no doubt that if I put one in my 420 with a 1.5 in sandbed I could keep it alive. That would give it enough room to forage without completely exhausting the food reserves (pods multiply in mass numbers if given the right circumstances). 5 years ago, my poorly manged 180 gal DT with a 3 in sand bed/nutrient sink was a great environment for them. With that in mind, a 420 gal DT isn't something everyone has to offer a star nor would you want to create a nutrient swamp out of your sandbed just to keep them alive. I worded it poorly, but just wanted to indicate that they aren't impossible to keep alive. No factual evidence, JMO from experience.


EDIT ** ADDITION**

If stocked properly, I think a sand sifting star can easily be kept in captivity, but they will eat a lot of the animals within the sand bed that funtion to eat and manage detritus that settles in.

Jeremy

This wasn't meant to be a suggestion/recommendation for anyone to buy them as a sand sifting crew.

Jeremy

 

[customcolor]

i have also have had my sifting star for 2 years now....my sand bed in the 125 was sugar sand and 3" deep...now in the 150 its the same sand.... i forgot to add that my sand bed is now just over 4" deep now....and i also added some larger pieces of substrate that was in the 150 when i got it.....that just covers the sugar sand and will in time get mixed in....for 9 months i had a horse shoe crab...many said it was going to starve in 2 weeks....well it took 9 months be for i saw it disapier....but i will not get another one of those. they move every thing on the sand bed!
with my sand bed i have now i think ill be able to keep the star alive even longer...there is so much of the sand exposed where things can grow...but the star cant really get to but those things that grow do move also. that star alone doesnt keep the sand bed top clean...it takes flow and care....the spoted goby just kicks up the sand alot wile eating...sugar sand and gobys make a mess of the water but i dont mind to much....with the barrel roll of water flow i have all the sand dust goes up one side and across the top to the over flow. it will all pan out in time...my tank set up is only just little over a month old so everything needs to settle again like it was in the 125....it takes time for a sand bet to settle...
5 months is not very long....my 125 look like almost a year to take hold of it self with a few gray spots along the way but they disapiered all together by the time i moved the sand to the 150.

wow i think thats the most i typed all at once in a long time.

 

[customcolor]

and just because you have a vortec mp40 and a hydor k4 doesnt always mean you have the best flow....they need to be placed in the right spots to get the right flow pattern

 

[heliguy71]

my filter is rena xp3 and i run carbon and phos-zorb in it,by no means is it a kids gold fish filter and it gives me more flow.thanks for the help but don't make me look like a idiot,i am trying to get good info from you guys which you have.i have talked to fosters and smith alot and they told me a rena would be beneficial if i just ran carbon,phos-zorb or both.as far as flow in a 120 1 mp40 and 1-kor-4 plus my mag dribe 18 return pump and rena,how much more do i need,

by the way thanks dave for your input-great tank you have.

 

[jlinzmaier]

my filter is rena xp3 and i run carbon and phos-zorb in it,by no means is it a kids gold fish filter and it gives me more flow.thanks for the help but don't make me look like a idiot,i am trying to get good info from you guys which you have.i have talked to fosters and smith alot and they told me a rena would be beneficial if i just ran carbon,phos-zorb or both.as far as flow in a 120 1 mp40 and 1-kor-4 plus my mag dribe 18 return pump and rena,how much more do i need,

by the way thanks dave for your input-great tank you have.

NO NO NO!! Please don't take offense. I wasn't sure exactly what a rena filter was and didn't take the time to look it up. I was indicating that if it's a penguin "hang on back" type filter then it isn't sufficient. I thought this was the type of filter you were referring to:

Aquarium Power Filters: Marineland Penguin BIO-Wheel Power Filters

The rena canister filter is far superior to the HOB filters and is great for use in a reef tank. It's a very appropriate for use with the GAC and GFO.

In regards to the flow, just like what Dave was indicating, if the flow isn't directed in the correct way it's effect can be pretty limited and not very helpful in removing the detritus from the tank. I don't know how you have your flow set up and that's why I indicated to use a turkey baster to spray the rock and see how much detritus was settling on it.

I'm taking my time and energy to help solve YOUR problems and answer YOUR questions. Don't get so bent out of shape when given advice. I haven't been rude in any way, just trying to help. You want a sand bed free of algea, you need to better manage your nutrients. There are a thousand and one ways to manage nutrient build up. I don't know your level of experience or involvement so I'm offering very basic suggestions.

Jeremy

 

[customcolor]

i got a q for ya heli....what brand of sand do you have and how old is your rock and where did it come from? it may be coming from either and not your husbandry..

 

[heliguy71]

i got all my live rock 4+ years ago at just pets and the sand is from fosters and smith.i think it is carib sea also my vortech is 6 inchs down from the top of tank and kor-4 is on the other side facing up maybe i should point it down towards the bottom.

 

[customcolor]

maybe pointing the k4 so the flow reacts with the vortech and pushes water up to the top so the overflow can grab the garbage and put it where it can be broken down.

have you always had ro water or did you run tap for a wile???

hooking up a di chamber to your ro will bring your dts to 0....do you have a tds meter on your ro set up..if not i would spend the $25 or so on ebay and get one so you can see if your ro filters are going bad.

 

[nkelr]

another cool critter that stirs up the sand is a green sea cucumber. i have one and the thing literly goes around the tank eating the dirty sand and pooping out clean sand. i love it way better than my sand sifter which i havent seen i a few months. after this thread i think i will tear up my tank a little and see if hes still alive. also another suggestion would be to step up your water change. what your doing doesnt sound like enough. maybe step it up to about 40 or 50 gallons and every now and then skim the top with your vacuum just to stir it up a bit. also customs suppestion makes a whole lot of sence and is worth a try.

 

[Fishcrazy06]

Nick I hate to say it but poop and clean don't exist.....poop is just another waste!

 

[heliguy71]

ya but a 25% water change a month is the norm, if i do more won't that be bad for the tank.fosters and smith also told me no more then 25% a month.i am doing a little over 25%.my total water volume for tank and sump is around 120.that is around 30 gallons a month.i am doing 40 gallons a month.i do 20 gallons every two weeks.

 

[heliguy71]

will a d/i addition on my r/o system help that much.i don't want to keep spending tons of money if it won't help that much.but if it will be beneficial then i will look into it.

thanks mike

 

[Fishcrazy06]

A DI unit will bring your TDS on the RO down to Zero or close too it. Depending on what you TDS is after the RO will be the determining factor for you. I know some people can run an RO unit without DI. However, them people are far and few between I do believe!

 

[nkelr]

if you say your system is a 120 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump then thats 150 gallons. round that up to 160 and 40 gallons is 25%. there is nothing wrong with doing a bigger water change. your tank will recover quickly. just dont do more than half your total water volume at once. i do 40 gallon water changes on my 150 gallon cichlid tank every 2 weeks and its always fine. ive also been doing 20 gallon water changes on my 55 salt tank every week for about a month now and its fine too water crystal clear.