Seneye Experiments and Cycling

[MnFish1]

;) Only because as soon as you mentioned the 8 ppm and slide damaged I seemingly damaged a slide lol

This is why I contacted the company directly. Imho before making claims it makes sense. With the full knowledge that companies are not always forthcoming. Jmho

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

What am I going to do with 22,000 gallons worth of cycling ammonia?

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

So after dosing .056 ppm into my 4 gallon bucket (2 ml) the peak concentration of NH3 was .002 which make sense given ammonia calculator. During my vacation I dosed 15x this at 15 ml 2x daily to simulate adding a harem of 28 additional clowns. The first dose (11/23 9 PM) reached a peak of .03 ppm NH3 and 12 hours later dropped to .007 ppm right before the 2nd dose. The second dose (11/24 8:37 AM) reached a peak of .04 ppm of NH3 and dropped below a threshold of .03 after 4 hours and after 12 hours right before the 3rd dose was at .01 ppm NH3. The peak of the experiment was at 8:37 PM on 11/24 when it reached .043 and again at 8:37 PM that night when it again reached .043. After that the peaks declined in magnitude and were .04, .038 and .036 which seemed promising. One thing to note is that upon returning on 11/28 the evaporation had reached about 1.3 L.

Keep in mind that based on Randy's article that the LD50 is around .09 ppm NH3 as a baseline and I used what I would call a fairly small amount of live rock per gallon of water. It seems that per the live tank example that @brandon429 documented about 3 months ago that adding harem of clowns would not crash a tank but would reach a point of caution/monitoring and I would suggest feeding much less during the initial week.

 

[MnFish1]

So after dosing .056 ppm into my 4 gallon bucket (2 ml) the peak concentration of NH3 was .002 which make sense given ammonia calculator. During my vacation I dosed 15x this at 15 ml 2x daily to simulate adding a harem of 28 additional clowns. The first dose (11/23 9 PM) reached a peak of .03 ppm NH3 and 12 hours later dropped to .007 ppm right before the 2nd dose. The second dose (11/24 8:37 AM) reached a peak of .04 ppm of NH3 and dropped below a threshold of .03 after 4 hours and after 12 hours right before the 3rd dose was at .01 ppm NH3. The peak of the experiment was at 8:37 PM on 11/24 when it reached .043 and again at 8:37 PM that night when it again reached .043. After that the peaks declined in magnitude and were .04, .038 and .036 which seemed promising. One thing to note is that upon returning on 11/28 the evaporation had reached about 1.3 L.

Keep in mind that based on Randy's article that the LD50 is around .09 ppm NH3 as a baseline and I used what I would call a fairly small amount of live rock per gallon of water. It seems that per the live tank example that @brandon429 documented about 3 months ago that adding harem of clowns would not crash a tank but would reach a point of caution/monitoring and I would suggest feeding much less during the initial week.

Can you do a favor? - it would be really helpful - and thanks for your work. When you say you dose xxx. - the other variables are pH - and Temp. Without those its impossible to completely interpret IMHO

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Can you do a favor? - it would be really helpful - and thanks for your work. When you say you dose xxx. - the other variables are pH - and Temp. Without those its impossible to completely interpret IMHO

I can go back through it but as you know the pH sensor on the Seneye is essentially only good for about 7-14 days. My ph probe from my reef pi was in my main display as a precaution during vacation so I have no comparison.

What I would argue is that my initial verification and post verification of NH4 using a calculator from https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php should be sufficient. I see where you are going, trying to validate the data. Remember, a monitor simply does monitoring and a test kit can verify.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Also realizing I have no way to knowing what the ammonia concentration is currently. Given the rate of processing and the reactivity of the monitor its going to be impossible to tell...

 

[MnFish1]

I can go back through it but as you know the pH sensor on the Seneye is essentially only good for about 7-14 days. My ph probe from my reef pi was in my main display as a precaution during vacation so I have no comparison.

What I would argue is that my initial verification and post verification of NH4 using a calculator from https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php should be sufficient. I see where you are going, trying to validate the data. Remember, a monitor simply does monitoring and a test kit can verify.

Agreed

 

[MnFish1]

Also realizing I have no way to knowing what the ammonia concentration is currently. Given the rate of processing and the reactivity of the monitor its going to be impossible to tell...

Agreed as well

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

At end point I was measuring the following on external sensors
Salinity 1.024
Temp 77.3
pH 8.11
Expected ammonia given full processing prior .41

Expected ammonia NH3 from calculator .0249
Seneye Ammonia reading .024\
Seneye pH reading 8.19
Seneye Temp 77.63 F

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

So generally my personal conclusions are as follows:

Does ammonia processing scale with bioload?
Clearly it seemed that it took the test tank 3-4 days to ramp up bacterial production given the initial and final bioload. Yes, you will see an ammonia spike if you increase your bioload 15x without intervention.

Is this a dangerous addition?
I think coming within 50% of an LD50 would be hazardous and likely cause ammonia burns but unlikely to cause a significant issue unless you are feeding very heavily or lack sufficient live rock (study was done with 1 lb per gallon).

I think this lines up with what I have experienced with my African Cichlids. If you don't know much about stocking a FW cichlid tank, they suggest 2-3 large additions of fish to reduce territory issues while minimizing ammonia issues. I think my initial stocking was 8 and 18 fish without issue about 4 weeks later though I did take precautions.

Thoughts?

 

[MnFish1]

So generally my personal conclusions are as follows:

Does ammonia processing scale with bioload?
Clearly it seemed that it took the test tank 3-4 days to ramp up bacterial production given the initial and final bioload. Yes, you will see an ammonia spike if you increase your bioload 15x without intervention.

Is this a dangerous addition?
I think coming within 50% of an LD50 would be hazardous and likely cause ammonia burns but unlikely to cause a significant issue unless you are feeding very heavily or lack sufficient live rock (study was done with 1 lb per gallon).

I think this lines up with what I have experienced with my African Cichlids. If you don't know much about stocking a FW cichlid tank, they suggest 2-3 large additions of fish to reduce territory issues while minimizing ammonia issues. I think my initial stocking was 8 and 18 fish without issue about 4 weeks later though I did take precautions.

Thoughts?

Did you check out my recent experiment? just curious - I totally messed up yesterday

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/suddenly-add-20-fish-to-established-tank.806557/#post-8622731

I think his ammonia stayed in control here

key difference: his aquarium is ten times the contact area/ surface area and maturity of surfaces vs the tests going on lately from the chem forums posts which are bare bones comparatively

lately its been mentioned the bacteria are part of a team of life forms / corals and plants included / that take up jolts of free ammonia


the test containers haven’t been completely full reef tanks like that one

but to study the abilities of just bacteria which is the part I’m most interested in watching you guys study we wouldnt want all the extra help concealing what the bac could or couldn’t do, so very nice job on seneye findings here Neon, well done

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/suddenly-add-20-fish-to-established-tank.806557/#post-8622731

I think his ammonia stayed in control here

key difference: his aquarium is ten times the contact area/ surface area and maturity of surfaces vs the tests going on lately from the chem forums posts which are bare bones comparatively

lately its been mentioned the bacteria are part of a team of life forms / corals and plants included / that take up jolts of free ammonia


the test containers haven’t been completely full reef tanks like that one

but to study the abilities of just bacteria which is the part I’m most interested in watching you guys study we wouldnt want all the extra help concealing what the bac could or couldn’t do, so very nice job on seneye findings here Neon, well done

Thats interesting - so he has 80 lbs rock in 65 gallons (did I read that right)? (ratio 1.2:1 Rock:water)
In my test tanks - there are about 4 gallons total water - and 5.2 lbs of rock. (ratio 1.35:1 Rock:water)

So- I think your comment doesn't make complete sense - BUT - You make a FANTASTIC point - which I had not though about:

The rock from my 'sump' is lower quality rock - its definitely got a lot of 'surface area' but the rock that came from the 'display' - has more 'coral skeletons' - and less dense rock than the sump tank - THUS - the surface area might be different. Now - To control for this - I added water to a certain level - then added the rock to both tanks - and the displacement was the same - SO - that may not be playing a role - but its an interesting though - because the rock from the tank processes ammonia 2x as fast

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/suddenly-add-20-fish-to-established-tank.806557/#post-8622731

I think his ammonia stayed in control here

key difference: his aquarium is ten times the contact area/ surface area and maturity of surfaces vs the tests going on lately from the chem forums posts which are bare bones comparatively

lately its been mentioned the bacteria are part of a team of life forms / corals and plants included / that take up jolts of free ammonia

PS - you're right - that would be 'prefect' - BUT - its impossible to control properly - i.e. get the exact same coral, etc etc. At lease with rock, etc - you can try to pick similar pieces - For example - I laid it out on a table - and matched pieces - in an attempt to control surface area - in addition to what I mentioned in the last post.

 

[LRT]

Well done Neon to bad I missed this but glad I ran across it.
Planning anymore experiments?

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Well done Neon to bad I missed this but glad I ran across it.
Planning anymore experiments?

I am open to some. I think I have one more slide left. Some some cycled rock from previous experiment, dry rock out the wazoo and 2 tubs of fritz ammonia lol