Seneye Experiments and Cycling

[MnFish1]

. duplicated

 

[brandon429]

Neon would you mind making a running list of your summary


what are five or so main patterns or takeaways about any aspect of cycling you’ve noticed based on a good long observation run with digital gear here

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Estimated about 1/4 cube of marine cuisine for 2 clowns. It’s about what I feed to my 3 small fish in my nano. Math is below. Which I had caught a rounding error before having my GF check my math…. Had already mixed and dosed for today (about .15 mg nh4 shy). Going to set my doser to 2 ml of solution which would be one feeding (I honestly only feed once a day)

 

[MnFish1]

According to Seneye - their products are not designed for testing - but rather 'day to day'. Why dont you call them @brandon429

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Neon would you mind making a running list of your summary


what are five or so main patterns or takeaways about any aspect of cycling you’ve noticed based on a good long observation run with digital gear here

1. I should consult with Lasse on potential issues with experimental approaches
2. 2 Lbs per gallon is an overshoot and atleast wasteful
3. Seneye does a pretty good job of telling you that you are safe in a cycle or tank is crashing
4. Ammonia spikes are only a result of a crash and should rarely impact a tank post cycle. If it is, then its too late to fix anyways (unless you have like a Seneye to alert you real time... just opinion here)
5. Ammonia testing post cycle can be done by looking at your tank and realizing that everything is dead

That being said I do like having the knowledge of if I am over feeding (it gets above .001) or if a fish dies (put seneye in my tank about 2 weeks ago after I left my heater off and I lost my algae blenny). I think the hobby would be in better shape if Seneye support helps dispel rumors or shared data.

 

[MnFish1]

1. I should consult with Lasse on potential issues with experimental approaches
2. 2 Lbs per gallon is an overshoot and atleast wasteful
3. Seneye does a pretty good job of telling you that you are safe in a cycle or tank is crashing
4. Ammonia spikes are only a result of a crash and should rarely impact a tank post cycle. If it is, then its too late to fix anyways (unless you have like a Seneye to alert you real time... just opinion here)
5. Ammonia testing post cycle can be done by looking at your tank and realizing that everything is dead

That being said I do like having the knowledge of if I am over feeding (it gets above .001) or if a fish dies (put seneye in my tank about 2 weeks ago after I left my heater off and I lost my algae blenny). I think the hobby would be in better shape if Seneye support helps dispel rumors or shared data.

I think you're correct

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

If anyone can check my math in pdfs posted... Fritz states 4.5 g / 100 gallons. I am trying to make a 1 gallon solution in which 2 ml of the solution will increase the 4 gallon test bucket by .0561 ppm (about 1/4 cube of frozen). Either I got a dud slide or math is off. I also can't read API test kits worth a crap and my red sea kit spilled...

 

[MnFish1]

If anyone can check my math in pdfs posted... Fritz states 4.5 g / 100 gallons. I am trying to make a 1 gallon solution in which 2 ml of the solution will increase the 4 gallon test bucket by .0561 ppm (about 1/4 cube of frozen). Either I got a dud slide or math is off. I also can't read API test kits worth a crap and my red sea kit spilled...

IMHO - you cannot compare 'glass' with 'rock'. At least that what Dr, Tim's says. But I think the 'Seneye being used in experiments' has sailed

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

IMHO - you cannot compare 'glass' with 'rock'. At least that what Dr, Tim's says. But I think the 'Seneye being used in experiments' has sailed

Your comment about "not being designed for testing" has some validity but this isn't testing per say. This is monitoring ammonia processing in a 5 gallon bucket at a given dosage that should be easy to process and then spiking said dosage. If the seneye can truly detect ammonia changes (which it 100% can) then the accuracy doesn't matter to an extent.

What I am looking for is the following:
1. The slide representing a value with 20% of the estimated free ammonia based on pH, salinity, temp and dosage
2. The ammonia rising to some value (hopefully within 20% of expected) and being processed before becoming toxic during initial phase
3. Change the dosage of ammonia to the test bucket to represent a large bioload increase and see a resulting change
4. Determine is ammonia levels overrun the processing potential of the LR

If I were to run this without a numerical output and simply a waveform, the resulting conclusions should be the same. Again, these are not so much experiments but just examining tribal knowledge. I think what Seneye is suggesting is that if you use this device as a test result and base decisions off of the values that there is a certain liability associated with saying ammonia is X. These devices are developed and funded by companies who are thinking about entering larger markets (waste treatment, medical, ect) and they know aquarists are picky as hell. They also know that is you have the device/tech in a medical field and its 10% off that its a huge liability risk... You can quote me on that as I have has conversations with designers and developers who are in the business (NDA so can't disclose much). A monitor is not a testing device but it absolutely can and should be used to determine trends in reef setups, artificial or not. Dan, LRT and I have had fairly good success so far in testing.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

PS. not directing hate at your but just trying to clear the air in why Seneye is suggesting its not a testing device (because its not). It has its flaws but normally within a margin of error.

 

[MnFish1]

Your comment about "not being designed for testing" has some validity but this isn't testing per say. This is monitoring ammonia processing in a 5 gallon bucket at a given dosage that should be easy to process and then spiking said dosage. If the seneye can truly detect ammonia changes (which it 100% can) then the accuracy doesn't matter to an extent.

What I am looking for is the following:
1. The slide representing a value with 20% of the estimated free ammonia based on pH, salinity, temp and dosage
2. The ammonia rising to some value (hopefully within 20% of expected) and being processed before becoming toxic during initial phase
3. Change the dosage of ammonia to the test bucket to represent a large bioload increase and see a resulting change
4. Determine is ammonia levels overrun the processing potential of the LR

If I were to run this without a numerical output and simply a waveform, the resulting conclusions should be the same. Again, these are not so much experiments but just examining tribal knowledge. I think what Seneye is suggesting is that if you use this device as a test result and base decisions off of the values that there is a certain liability associated with saying ammonia is X. These devices are developed and funded by companies who are thinking about entering larger markets (waste treatment, medical, ect) and they know aquarists are picky as hell. They also know that is you have the device/tech in a medical field and its 10% off that its a huge liability risk... You can quote me on that as I have has conversations with designers and developers who are in the business (NDA so can't disclose much). A monitor is not a testing device but it absolutely can and should be used to determine trends in reef setups, artificial or not. Dan, LRT and I have had fairly good success so far in testing.

I believe that prolonged high pH - and high ammonia concentration permanently damages the slide. According to Seneye. So - you would not be able to see a Trend - depending on the ammonia level and pH. I totally agree - if you're using it lower ammonia concentrations near what would be expected in a tank - you can follow the trend. In one of their experiments - they used 8 ppm total ammonia - at pH 8.6. I believe this would damage the slide - and make it uninterpretable. (The copepod experiment)

 

[MnFish1]

PS. not directing hate at your but just trying to clear the air in why Seneye is suggesting its not a testing device (because its not). It has its flaws but normally within a margin of error.

Their concern was the issue with prolonged higher than usual amounts of ammonia can damage the slide/make it wear out more quickly. I guess if I was doing an ammonia experiment with a seneye, I would occasionally verify (i.e. something like calibration - with a known ammonia standard) - to make sure its reading correctly

 

[MnFish1]

PS. not directing hate at your but just trying to clear the air in why Seneye is suggesting its not a testing device (because its not). It has its flaws but normally within a margin of error.

PPS - no offense taken. I was just pointing out that Dr. Tims says that using 'glass' (i.e. a bare bottom tank or ceramic, etc) - will lengthen the cycle - so I would think it would be similar on slides - or ceramic disks, etc

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I am fairly certain I pulled what I am going to call an "Mn". Either I damaged the slide by exposure to about 1 ppm ammonia during trimming or have a defective slide. This wasn't intentional, I had a bucket with the rock and seneye and another bucket set up to trim at a higher dosage. I went for my final dose into 2nd bucket which is larger to compare to an API test to ensure my dosing concentration was right and completely forgot to transfer the seneye over to the LR bucket... 1 ppm shouldn't do anything but the slide was acting up before this.

Dosed last night and after an hour it read .004 ppb at 7:30 PM which was on target for the dosage but has climbed since then to .008 ppb with no new additions. Getting with tech support and going through their usual "OMG DID YOU INSTALL THE SLIDE RIGHT?" junk and will likely switch out the slide before vacation.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Follow-up post for those who want to go "AH YOU SEE SENEYE BAD"

Any contact with the film and your hands can damage it, exposure to high ammonia levels can damage it, exposure to air can damage it and others. When I was soaking my slide I used the fancy Seneye brand soaker and sump water level dipped and suction cup fell off. Handling and inserting the slides requires a higher level of care and must be done underwater too. I probably messed up but claiming it as defective because of my ego.

 

[Garf]

Follow-up post for those who want to go "AH YOU SEE SENEYE BAD"

Any contact with the film and your hands can damage it, exposure to high ammonia levels can damage it, exposure to air can damage it and others. When I was soaking my slide I used the fancy Seneye brand soaker and sump water level dipped and suction cup fell off. Handling and inserting the slides requires a higher level of care and must be done underwater too. I probably messed up but claiming it as defective because of my ego.

I was contemplating getting a seneye 18months ago, not at least for the PAR meter. Over the last 18months I’ve seen multiple problems with it and it’s reliability and reproducibility with NH3 especially. Can you sum up its advantages for me in a sentence or two, cheers.

 

[MnFish1]

I am fairly certain I pulled what I am going to call an "Mn". Either I damaged the slide by exposure to about 1 ppm ammonia during trimming or have a defective slide. This wasn't intentional, I had a bucket with the rock and seneye and another bucket set up to trim at a higher dosage. I went for my final dose into 2nd bucket which is larger to compare to an API test to ensure my dosing concentration was right and completely forgot to transfer the seneye over to the LR bucket... 1 ppm shouldn't do anything but the slide was acting up before this.

Dosed last night and after an hour it read .004 ppb at 7:30 PM which was on target for the dosage but has climbed since then to .008 ppb with no new additions. Getting with tech support and going through their usual "OMG DID YOU INSTALL THE SLIDE RIGHT?" junk and will likely switch out the slide before vacation.

I hope I'm not the MN you're referring to - but - I assume I am

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I was contemplating getting a seneye 18months ago, not at least for the PAR meter. Over the last 18months I’ve seen multiple problems with it and it’s reliability and reproducibility with NH3 especially. Can you sum up its advantages for me in a sentence or two, cheers.

Honestly for $200 I would buy an apogee and rent it out to others. The par meters apparently doesn’t catch reflected light so edges seem darker than they are. As a rough estimate it is great but only in center.

to answer your question
1. Gives you a quick par reading. The edge issue is only and issue if you don’t know about it (I didn’t)
2. Fun toy to play around with cycling ideas
3. Does pretty well for an “Holy crap the tank is crashing due to a broken heater, all doser stuck on or fish died” alarm

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I hope I'm not the MN you're referring to - but - I assume I am

Only because as soon as you mentioned the 8 ppm and slide damaged I seemingly damaged a slide lol

 

[Garf]

Honestly for $200 I would buy an apogee and rent it out to others. The par meters apparently doesn’t catch reflected light so edges seem darker than they are. As a rough estimate it is great but only in center.

to answer your question
1. Gives you a quick par reading. The edge issue is only and issue if you don’t know about it (I didn’t)
2. Fun toy to play around with cycling ideas
3. Does pretty well for an “Holy crap the tank is crashing due to a broken heater, all doser stuck on or fish died” alarm

Thanks neon, impartial review is critical.