Serious Phosphate Problem

[ryshark]

When in doubt, change it out!
Water that is Find a salt that mixes close to your consistent alk maintained, and do a large water change. Disable return pump, do your basting and scrubbing thing, then suck out the water and replace. Stop using products! Manual intervention and elbow grease, that is best approach. This will reset and balance minerals, nutrients, and bacteria, which clearly there is a balance issue. Just went through dinos, dumped all carbon dosing and bacteria products, and back to boring old Berlin method, dosing kalkwasser, passive carbon, protein skimmer. I could not be happier
KISS

I will consider this. I use ESV Seawater system which typically mixes up to my usual Alk level in my tank. I need to go get a bigger/another mixing station though. Before the issue started I was pretty much doing the KISS method. I was only dosing Alk/Cal/Mg and Iodide and doing water changes every other week.

After the issue I started , I put filter socks in and then I tried/trying Prodibio BioDigest, Prodibio Bioptim, KZ Coral Snow Plus and I do have some KZ Bio-Mate coming next week, this will probably be the last product I try.

I just came back to edit this post as I saw a Dr. Tims email and now I'm also considering Waste Away ;Facepalm

 

[ryshark]

You should read up on fluconazole and GFO.
I just did 10,000mg of fluconazole in my system.

I have read in the past it kills acros.

 

[ryshark]

First, when you scrub your rocks, take them out of the tank and clean them in a bucket of water. I would suggest doing this while doing a water change. Just scrub the rocks in the water that you pull out of the tank. When you clean them in the tank, you are just releasing all of the nutrients into the water.

Second, using a product like Lanthium Chloride or GFO to bring down the PO4 isn't a bad thing, just do it slowly. You need to decide what the major problem is and then deal with it. To me, the algae is the biggest problem caused by the elevated PO4. Your rock work has probably trapped some PO4, and your levels will take a while to come down.

Keep cleaning the algae off of the rocks so that your clean-up crew has a chance to get ahead. I would also consider using a PO4 reducing product to get a handle on the PO4. Just take it slowly. When your PO4 stays below 0.1, stop using the product.

This could take a while, so just be patient.

I agree. As I was doing my big rock scrubbing in the tank which caused the PO4 spike, I was thinking, I should be doing this in a bucket.
I was hoping the Coral Snow PLUS had the LC in it to bring my PO4 down, but its not doing much. The algae spreading from high nutrients is definitely the problem and I think there is trapped PO4 because I'm hardly feeding anymore.
I bought a ton of cleanup crew but the big Mexican turbos started dying and probably making my PO4 even worse.

 

[ryshark]

Have you tried identifying the source of the phosphates?

What do you feed and how often?

I used to feed a lot and had no algae, used to be pellets automatically 3 times a day in a feeder and also a small chunk of frozen LRS. LRS chunk was about 1/4" x 1/2".
Since the issue started happening I only feed once per day. Typically LRS 1/4" x 1/3" chunk or a pinch of pellets or a pinch of nori flakes.

 

[Dom]

I used to feed a lot and had no algae, used to be pellets automatically 3 times a day in a feeder and also a small chunk of frozen LRS. LRS chunk was about 1/4" x 1/2".
Since the issue started happening I only feed once per day. Typically LRS 1/4" x 1/3" chunk or a pinch of pellets or a pinch of nori flakes.

Pellets, flakes and even some frozen foods can add PO4 to your water.

Perhaps going old school and increasing the size and frequency of your water changes is in order. I also found ferric oxide to be useful in absorbing PO4.

 

[ryshark]

Pellets, flakes and even some frozen foods can add PO4 to your water.

Perhaps going old school and increasing the size and frequency of your water changes is in order. I also found ferric oxide to be useful in absorbing PO4.

All food adds PO4 to our water, but I think the pellets and nori flakes add more than frozen. I agree, increasing my water changes wouldn't hurts. I've been doing 15% every other week and I have one more water change worth of salt mix left. The ESV Seawater saltmix has been hard to find lately, however, I do have more on the way now, so could try this.

 

[Dom]

All food adds PO4 to our water, but I think the pellets and nori flakes add more than frozen. I agree, increasing my water changes wouldn't hurts. I've been doing 15% every other week and I have one more water change worth of salt mix left. The ESV Seawater saltmix has been hard to find lately, however, I do have more on the way now, so could try this.

I routinely do 20% weekly on water changes. I think 15% every other week is insufficient.

 

[ScottB]

I have read in the past it kills acros.

Fluc does carry some risk for acropora. If you are keeping BK Fruit Loops and the like, you cannot afford the small probability that it could go terribly wrong. Especially not for a common GHA outbreak. If you really had bryopsis, well, you wouldn't have many good alternatives.

I am done for good with GFO. I don't seem to be able to calibrate my use of it well enough and it eventually gets me into some trouble.

I have though become an occasional user of lanthanum chloride. Using the recommended dose always does the same thing overnight. It binds about .07 to .09 each time. Tropic Marin's Elimi-Phos works for me. When my PO4 creeps up, I can comfortably knock it back to .1 or so.

 

[ScottB]

All food adds PO4 to our water, but I think the pellets and nori flakes add more than frozen. I agree, increasing my water changes wouldn't hurts. I've been doing 15% every other week and I have one more water change worth of salt mix left. The ESV Seawater saltmix has been hard to find lately, however, I do have more on the way now, so could try this.

Very true about pellets and flakes versus frozen. Bot have some, but frozen is 90% moisture.

 

[Perry]

Very true about pellets and flakes versus frozen. Bot have some, but frozen is 90% moisture.

I agree, I spoil my fish, frozen only!!!

 

[BostonReefer300]

I don't think I have byropsis, I don't see anything fernlike with a stem/leafs. I don't think I have dinos either, but maybe. I don't have the stingy vertical algae with bubbles on top. I do have a diatom like layer on the rocks with trapped air bubbles. My son does have a microscope, it wouldn't hurt to check. How do I get a picture of it, put my phone up to the eye piece?
1. 120-gallon tank and 35 gallon sump, but with displacement. I think It filled up around 105 gallons. about 70lbs rock
2. 22-months. Up until this point my rock and sand was very clean and my system was algae free.
3. Sand is only about 1/2" to 1" deep. I don't clean it, I have lots of nassarius and conchs. I have some huge brittle starfish that came from the KP Aquaitcs live rock in Florida Keys. I didn't think of one of them dying, but that could definitely be a possibility.
4. Bubble Magus Curve 7 Elite with Sicce Pump. It takes about a week to fill up.
5. ATI 8-bulb and ReefBrite Strip. Since the issue started a lowered my photo period (especially the white daylight bulbs) 6-bulbs on for 8-hours and 8-bulbs on for 1-hour. My ReefBrite is on for 11-hours.
6. Stripping the PO4 our too fast and killing 1000s of dollars worth of acros. If I decide to do this, I will probably use like 1/4 of recommended.
7. 6-Stage RODI. I have a high rejection membrane which brings the TDS from 410 to 2 and then it goes into 2-stages of DI including silica removing DI. The TDS is 0 after the first stage of DI. My membrane is old though, like several years old but the rejection rate is still so high, I haven't changed it. I was planning on buying all new membranes filters and DI this weekend since Spectrapure has a Memorial Day sale.
6. Hanna ULR Phosphate and Salifert Nitrate.

Thanks for the info. That rules out some potential causes/issues. My guess is that the PO4 spike is from a combo of factors that have been brought up already on the thread plus you might have a dead starfish in the sand bed. I also think you probably do have dinos based on what I saw and your description. Diatoms for a tank your age can happen of course, but more likely in a new tank. Some dinos can resemble diatoms. And dinos (as I've read and believe I've experienced as well) can kill snails which you have happening. I'd definitely recommend collecting some of that bubbly goop and looking at it under a digital microscope. The attached file from @taricha can help you ID which dinos you have (if you have them). You can buy a cheap digital scope on amazon that you can operate through your phone. I won't recommend the one I got (Takmly) because it has all sorts of problems. Anyway, if you do have dinos AND a bad algae problem, that's tough. I battled dinos somewhat successfully by using the dirty tank method (ie elevated nutrients, no GFO, no water changes, etc.) but then I got bad algae/cyano. So then I did aggressive reduction of nutrients to control the algae/cyano---and then I got another huge bloom of dinos. Therefore, if you have dinos now, I hope you learn from my example and don't lower your nutrients so aggressively to attack your algae that you make the dinos worse. Lots of good advice already on the thread for reduction methods. I'd just stress that you don't want to go nuclear immediately. Have patience and plan on doing things over a month

 

[JWsticks]

Thanks for the info. That rules out some potential causes/issues. My guess is that the PO4 spike is from a combo of factors that have been brought up already on the thread plus you might have a dead starfish in the sand bed. I also think you probably do have dinos based on what I saw and your description. Diatoms for a tank your age can happen of course, but more likely in a new tank. Some dinos can resemble diatoms. And dinos (as I've read and believe I've experienced as well) can kill snails which you have happening. I'd definitely recommend collecting some of that bubbly goop and looking at it under a digital microscope. The attached file from @taricha can help you ID which dinos you have (if you have them). You can buy a cheap digital scope on amazon that you can operate through your phone. I won't recommend the one I got (Takmly) because it has all sorts of problems. Anyway, if you do have dinos AND a bad algae problem, that's tough. I battled dinos somewhat successfully by using the dirty tank method (ie elevated nutrients, no GFO, no water changes, etc.) but then I got bad algae/cyano. So then I did aggressive reduction of nutrients to control the algae/cyano---and then I got another huge bloom of dinos. Therefore, if you have dinos now, I hope you learn from my example and don't lower your nutrients so aggressively to attack your algae that you make the dinos worse. Lots of good advice already on the thread for reduction methods. I'd just stress that you don't want to go nuclear immediately. Have patience and plan on doing things over a month

Completely agree to take it slow.

Once you clean the algae from the rocks, you should see a spike in the nutrients and hopefully refugium will start consuming them.

 

[BostonReefer300]

Thanks for the info. That rules out some potential causes/issues. My guess is that the PO4 spike is from a combo of factors that have been brought up already on the thread plus you might have a dead starfish in the sand bed. I also think you probably do have dinos based on what I saw and your description. Diatoms for a tank your age can happen of course, but more likely in a new tank. Some dinos can resemble diatoms. And dinos (as I've read and believe I've experienced as well) can kill snails which you have happening. I'd definitely recommend collecting some of that bubbly goop and looking at it under a digital microscope. The attached file from @taricha can help you ID which dinos you have (if you have them). You can buy a cheap digital scope on amazon that you can operate through your phone. I won't recommend the one I got (Takmly) because it has all sorts of problems. Anyway, if you do have dinos AND a bad algae problem, that's tough. I battled dinos somewhat successfully by using the dirty tank method (ie elevated nutrients, no GFO, no water changes, etc.) but then I got bad algae/cyano. So then I did aggressive reduction of nutrients to control the algae/cyano---and then I got another huge bloom of dinos. Therefore, if you have dinos now, I hope you learn from my example and don't lower your nutrients so aggressively to attack your algae that you make the dinos worse. Lots of good advice already on the thread for reduction methods. I'd just stress that you don't want to go nuclear immediately. Have patience and plan on doing things over a month

Forgot to attach the paper from @taricha regarding dinos. Here you go

 

[Panama Brown]

IMO RUN THAT GFO!!! Bringing your Po4 down quickly isnt a bad thing. Its when you take out so much you've left nothing for your corals to intake. In a 48 hr period Ive brought Po4 from .72 to .08 and visually saw a positive reaction from my reef. Just make sure youre testing every day during the initial run and once youve got your Po4 where you want it, cut back on the GFO and continue testing every 3 or 4 days and stay in the habit of knowing where its at and you wont have any issues.

I too have been in your same exact position less than a year ago. Except my No3 was way higher. I was carbon dosing Vodka then changed to NoPox (basically Vodka / Vinegar mix) then just Vinegar until I just gave up on them all together. Turns out I was feeding the bad bacteria waaaaaay faster than I was the good. For some this method works, not for me.... Somewhere along the line I fudged up. Microbacter7 and other beneficial bacterias really did nothing to help my problem. Regardless carbon dosing takes much longer to benefit Po4 than No3. Therefore I have personally stopped using bacteria as a means to rid Po4. No3 yes! Po4 no.... Anyway....

I wound up setting up a "station" where I held a 50/50 solution of tank water mixed with Hydrogen Peroxide and pulled each rock out, one at a time and set it in my bucket of solution and took an old toothbrush to each rock and allowed them to sit in the solution (youll see the algae bubble up) remove it from the solution and wash it off in some clean saltwater / tank water before returning the rock to your display. This did take some time (I was running a 125g display at the time) so break it down into sections if you dont have time all at once.

By doing this along with the addition of Mexican Turbos (which honestly I dont keep in my display) along with some Emerald Crabs & Urchins (Also dont typically keep these in my display either) and you can knock that algae out quicker than you think. After the algae was eradicated ive since removed every Mexican turbo, Urchin, & Emerald. I personally dont like how they plow over frags, Emeralds may snack on your corals, & Urchins are frag theives...

I hope this helps!!!!!
P.S. Running refugium light even 24 hours wont hurt much unless you already have low No3 then I would suggest against this. May raise Ph some.... Typically though theres no need to run skimmer that long.
P.S.S. You got this! Dont give it!

 

[Panama Brown]

Btw how is the eradication coming along?

 

[ryshark]

Btw how is the eradication coming along?

It’s not getting any better. My PO4 is down to .22 from the increased refugium time and the “maybe” LC in the coral snow Plus. But whenever I scrub the algae it comes back in a couple days.
Im trying dr Tim’s algae recipe with Re fresh and Waste away right down, I’m about 1-week into it. If this doesn’t work I’m hooking up the GFO and if I still have issues after the PO4 gets down to .08, then I’ll look further into the peroxide bath for the rocks. Thanks.

 

[Panama Brown]

It’s not getting any better. My PO4 is down to .22 from the increased refugium time and the “maybe” LC in the coral snow Plus. But whenever I scrub the algae it comes back in a couple days.
Im trying dr Tim’s algae recipe with Re fresh and Waste away right down, I’m about 1-week into it. If this doesn’t work I’m hooking up the GFO and if I still have issues after the PO4 gets down to .08, then I’ll look further into the peroxide bath for the rocks. Thanks.

I dont wanna steer you the wrong direction but I swear by the 50/50 peroxide bath. Its the only thing that worked in removing the algae and keeping it gone. Even the following 48 to 72 hours after the bath you will continue to see algae die off. That along with running RowaPhos in a GFO reactor and a few extra clean up crewman and I was set. The algae has yet to return. Cyano tried to poke its ugly head for a second, because I was still carbon dosing but have since stopped and the little bit of Cyano i started to notice went away with a turkey bastor and end of carbon dosing.

Like I said earlier I removed the extra CUC that I don't normally keep and left the day to day work to my tangs conchs, hermits, snails, & sand sifting starfish. Also am dosing Microbacter7 once a week to dose beneficial bacteria. I run a small fuge and swear by GFO. Like you, I used to not want to do anything with GFO for the same fear of loss, but if youre dilligent with testing a couple times a week you can really track your GFO intake and dial your flow from there. By testing Po4 every 3 or 4 days youll see when the GFO starts to lose its power and know when to replace the media. Again, my 2 cents.

 

[JWsticks]

It’s not getting any better. My PO4 is down to .22 from the increased refugium time and the “maybe” LC in the coral snow Plus. But whenever I scrub the algae it comes back in a couple days.
Im trying dr Tim’s algae recipe with Re fresh and Waste away right down, I’m about 1-week into it. If this doesn’t work I’m hooking up the GFO and if I still have issues after the PO4 gets down to .08, then I’ll look further into the peroxide bath for the rocks. Thanks.

Given the current nutrient level, the refugium is not able to export it quick enough. Trying running the light 24 hours and dosing iron once a week. If that doesn't work you need to up the ante on the exporting. Many have already mentioned use of GFO or LC. I would dose vodka and nitrates. I never had a good experience with gfo with sps so wouldn't recommend either.

 

[ryshark]

Given the current nutrient level, the refugium is not able to export it quick enough. Trying running the light 24 hours and dosing iron once a week. If that doesn't work you need to up the ante on the exporting. Many have already mentioned use of GFO or LC. I would dose vodka and nitrates. I never had a good experience with gfo with sps so wouldn't recommend either.

2-doses of the Dr. tims waste away has brought my PO4 down from .22 to .14 (my latest test today) in 3-days at less than 25% dose. I'm going to dose again tomorrow and see where I'm at on Sunday. I have my refugium at 18-hours now, I may kick it up again. I do plan to dose nitrates to make sure I don't deplete them entirely with the bacteria. Which reminds me, I need to buy some. I've been meaning to check if any of my LFS carries the neonitro.

 

[JWsticks]

2-doses of the Dr. tims waste away has brought my PO4 down from .22 to .14 (my latest test today) in 3-days at less than 25% dose. I'm going to dose again tomorrow and see where I'm at on Sunday. I have my refugium at 18-hours now, I may kick it up again. I do plan to dose nitrates to make sure I don't deplete them entirely with the bacteria. Which reminds me, I need to buy some. I've been meaning to check if any of my LFS carries the neonitro.

Know someone who had a similar issue and did following get down to 0.10ppm PO4 from 0.69ppm:

Light Refugium for 24H
Dose MB7 and NOPOX everyday
Dose iron for chaeto growth
Maintain nitrates > 1

Not saying you need to deploy all of the above but I'm pretty confident this will work without any use of GFO. It is a bit advanced and not recommended to newbies.