Should We Be Carbon dosing?

[Timfish]

so.. basically, Carbon feeds bacteria. Bacteria comes in all size and shapes - some are good, some are bad. when you dose carbon you basically are increasing DOC in the water. DOC doesn't differentiate if it feeds the good vs the bad bacteria.

there's actual new research that looked into algae growth that seem to show that its not "excess nutrient" that causes algae, but rather this cycle of algae ->releasing DOC/sugars via photosynthesys ->bad bacteria on coral surface eat the DOC -> localized O2 level drop due to bacteria ->coral suffocate and die - >local rotting coral flesh fuel more bacteria.

maybe i'm butchering the explanation but @Timfish is the first one that showed this to me with his links to direct research source. I have since stopped dosing carbon. I dose amino instead.

Kinda, yeah ;D but it is an incredibly complex subject. I'd add some forms of DOC promote autotrophic microbial processes beneficial to corals and some forms promote heterotrophic microbial processes that can be detrimental to corals.

I think you may have butchered it but I’m sure I would have also.

when you say you’re not dosing carbon, Aren’t amino acid a carbon source?!

Amino acids are organic nitrogen.

The problem I see with carbon dosing is no one can deterimine whether the microbial processes being promoted are benefiting nuisance algae or corals. Another unkown variable is many sponges and especially the cryptic species ubiquitous in reef systems are processing DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. These sponges are differetnially prcessing DOC depending on the source and may benefit corals or may be part of feedback loops that promote nuisance algae. AquaBiomics tests might be of help but other wise there's no way to determine short term or long term what's happening. Here's a bunch of links. First is Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" While he doesn't touch on sponges his book and video are an excellent introduction to the subject. Then are some videos by scientists researching corals sponges and reef ecosystems most I think will find infromative. hen there's a whole slew of links to papers (some need to be purchased to read but the abstracts will still convey important info for those not inclined to by them). And I think it's important to point out research done at University of Texas in Austin has shown significant differences in immune system resilliancy at the genotype level, so the innate resistance of a clone line is also a factor in these equations.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


DOC can be roughly seperated into three catagories, Labile, Semirefractory and Refractory. Most of the following papaers are looking mainly at Labile DOC. This will raise the hackles on some reefers but keep in mind Labile DOC and Carbon Dosing are pretty much synonamous. Jasper deGeoij's work shows cryptic sponges remove labile DOC about a thousand times faster than bacterioplankton. Included are links to some of the research showing what cryptic sponges are doing as well. Also, researchers seem to use DOM (Dissolved Organic Matter) and DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) interchangebly although for purists there may be important distinctions.

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

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besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms - PubMed

As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And here's some stuff on phosphorus and nitrogen:

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals: Ingenta Connect

www.ingentaconnect.com

Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARY. This study was designed to assess the importance of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) as a nitrogen source for the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. For this purpose, experiments were performed using 15N-enriched DFAAs, and %15N enrichment was measured both in animal tissue and...

journals.biologists.com

Urea a source of nitrogen for corals

Urea uptake by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Urea can be one of the major sources of nitrogen for phytoplankton, but little is known about its importance for corals. Experiments were therefore de…

www.sciencedirect.com

Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals

Diazotrophs: a non-negligible source of nitrogen for the tropical coral Stylophora pistillata - PubMed

Corals are mixotrophs: they are able to fix inorganic carbon through the activity of their symbiotic dinoflagellates and to gain nitrogen from predation on plankton and uptake of dissolved organic and inorganic nutrients. They also live in close association with diverse diazotrophic communities...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism

Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Request PDF

Request PDF | Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Human-mediated increases in nutrient availability alter patterns of primary production, impact species diversity, and threaten ecosystem function.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the uptake of dissolved inorganic nutrients by the algal symbiont and heterotrophic feeding of the coral host. Climate change is expected to...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach (increasing phosphate increases growth)

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

 

[Cory]

So why not just dose less carbon? Or dose more N and P? Which one do you choose? Does it even matter?

I dose very little carbon sources but i try to maintain no3 and po4 to just barely detcable. If i read nothing i add some. I dose iron citrate wich has a carbon source. You need to watch ph when dosing carbon sources that would be my hold back on it. Too low ph kills and stunts coral growth.

 

[Reefology1]

Carbon deficiency comes about because food or a living organisms is consumed for two purposes: to generate energy and to build biomass. Making energy uses organic carbon but not nitrogen or phosphorous. Building biomass uses carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous.

A large portion of what an organism consumes goes to making energy, that is, the carbon is primarily used up. That is why nitrogen (e.g., nitrate) and phosphorous (mostly phosphate) tend to accumulate in the aquarium. The other waste product CO2 can escape.
If you keep an inventory of the food elements imported into the aquarium that are used versus left behind, N and P are alsways larger than C. When we carbon dose, the balance in the food inventory shifts.

Carbon dosing supplies bacteria the needed energy for growth and building biomass, resulting in the N and P in the aquarium being sopped up. This is regularly done in fish farms, though they use other carbon sources. In principle, fish food could be mixed with extra organic carbon to keep the carbon inventory high enough to consume all the nitrogen, though maybe not the phosphorous.

Make sense?

Makes great sense, thank you kind sir. @Dan_P I've noticed you started several threads on carbon dosing a few years back. Be warned, as I make my way through those, I may ask a few question to bring those threads to the surface.

Cheers!

 

[Reefology1]

Amino acids are organic nitrogen.

The problem I see with carbon dosing is no one can deterimine whether the microbial processes being promoted are benefiting nuisance algae or corals.

Thank you @Timfish for all the great links/info, enough to keep me busy for a while.

Does the quote above suggest you don't carbon dose? If so, how do you deal with excess N and P?

 

[Timfish]

Thank you @Timfish for all the great links/info, enough to keep me busy for a while.

Does the quote above suggest you don't carbon dose? If so, how do you deal with excess N and P?

No, I don't use carbon dosing. I also won't use skimmers, initially I ddin't see them as necessary in the 90s but after reading Feldman's research showing they skew the microbial populations in aquaria I see them as detrimental to the long term success of keeping corals.

Water changes and GFO. I'd argue getting rid of the hydrophillic DOC that promotes pathogenic changes in coral microbiomes is a more important to remove than excess N and P and water changes is the best way to do insure it's removal IMO. It can't be removed by skimmers or GFO and Ozone has the risk of promoting microbial we don't want as it converts refractory DOC into forms more easily consumed by bacteria.


Here's some links to Feldman's research:

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1

The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.

reefs.com

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2

Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...

reefs.com

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.

reefs.com

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

 

[Dan_P]

Makes great sense, thank you kind sir. @Dan_P I've noticed you started several threads on carbon dosing a few years back. Be warned, as I make my way through those, I may ask a few question to bring those threads to the surface.

Cheers!

Happy to help. I will no doubt learn something from your questions.

 

[Treefer32]

I tried to follow this thread, but may need someone to explain in more english terms.

I've been carbon dosing (vodka) about 4-5 months now. SInce I stopped doing water changes. I'm up to 11ml of vodka per day.

My tests show that Phosphates dropped significantly. However, nitrates are, at best being somewhat limited.

My ICP test showed phosphates at .04 (I'm very happy with this number).

My Hana Tester High range nitrate tester shows nitrates reaching 30. Week over week for the last 4 weeks they've been rising about 3-5 per week. And have finally hit the 31-32 mark. I don't know when corals will start to suffer. I noticed recession on one acro, but all other corals are doing great and even the one receeding is still doing amazingly good for nitrates over 30.

I guess, my question is, can carbon dosing fuel the bacteria that help to reduce nitrates if phosphates are limited?

I run a large sized skimmer (Rated at 500 gallons moderate load) and an algae turf scrubber, lights at max and running 22 out of 24 hours a day. I used to run it 16 hours a day and since going up to 22 hours a day I get double the production of hair algae in the scrubber. I have to clean it every 3 days now. After 4 days it starts to plug up both the primary and emergency drains. . .

Do I continue raising my carbon dosing to 12-15 ml per day. . . or more until nitrates start to fall or do I accept I'm limited on how much bacteria I can grow?

 

[BradB]

Carbon dosing (sugar, vodka, etc) have been popular before, and while they have improved my testable parameters, I've never seen an improvement in how my tank looks.

Carbon + Nitrate + Phosphate = algae. Algae growth lowers all 3 in proportion to what it needs, water changes lower all of them in proportion to what is in the water, feeding raises all in proportion to what is in the food.

Most of my tanks accumulate phosphate and have low or no nitrate. There is no reason to dose carbon, as Nitrate is limiting algae growth.

I've had tanks accumulate Nitrate, either naturally over time, or with Nitrate dosing. Phosphate tends to stay low in these tanks, and Nitrate is not that harmful and well controlled with water changes.

In theory, if Nitrate and Phosphate are both higher than you want, Carbon dosing will lower them. But this is an unusual situation, and you probably are better off doing a water change.

 

[Nano sapiens]

No, I don't use carbon dosing. I also won't use skimmers, initially I ddin't see them as necessary in the 90s but after reading Feldman's research showing they skew the microbial populations in aquaria I see them as detrimental to the long term success of keeping corals.

Water changes and GFO. I'd argue getting rid of the hydrophillic DOC that promotes pathogenic changes in coral microbiomes is a more important to remove than excess N and P and water changes is the best way to do insure it's removal IMO. It can't be removed by skimmers or GFO and Ozone has the risk of promoting microbial we don't want as it converts refractory DOC into forms more easily consumed by bacteria.

That is interesting as it basically mirrors how I have run my systems over the decades (no skimmer, no mechanical or chemical filtration, regular detritus removal/control and consistent water changes). I adopted this way of reefing long before I read Feldman's articles, but it was nice to see a scientific approach to the subject.

 

[Reefology1]

No, I don't use carbon dosing. I also won't use skimmers, initially I ddin't see them as necessary in the 90s but after reading Feldman's research showing they skew the microbial populations in aquaria I see them as detrimental to the long term success of keeping corals.

Water changes and GFO. I'd argue getting rid of the hydrophillic DOC that promotes pathogenic changes in coral microbiomes is a more important to remove than excess N and P and water changes is the best way to do insure it's removal IMO. It can't be removed by skimmers or GFO and Ozone has the risk of promoting microbial we don't want as it converts refractory DOC into forms more easily consumed by bacteria.


Here's some links to Feldman's research:

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1

The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.

reefs.com

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2

Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...

reefs.com

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.

reefs.com

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

Once again, thank you, I really appreciate the links.
Cheers

 

[Reefology1]

In theory, if Nitrate and Phosphate are both higher than you want, Carbon dosing will lower them. But this is an unusual situation, and you probably are better off doing a water change.

Sorry to put this so bluntly, but In my estimation, it’s the “least” unusual situation. It’s noted everywhere on this forum and the reason carbon dosing is so popular in the first place.

And, tell me again, specifically, why you do water changes?

 

[Timfish]

That is interesting as it basically mirrors how I have run my systems over the decades (no skimmer, no mechanical or chemical filtration, regular detritus removal/control and consistent water changes). I adopted this way of reefing long before I read Feldman's articles, but it was nice to see a scientific approach to the subject.

Likewise. I realized back in hte 90s there wasn't a direct association between nitrates, phosphates and nuisance algae. (I also had a very brief but seminal conversation with the director of an infectious disease department of a local hospital, her comments about bacteria is what got me thinking holisticly about my systems.) What got me started in 2009 - 2010 into digging up what researchers were actually finding was the assertions I was seeing on the forums that phosphates had to be kept very low which contradicted what my experiences were. Besides research done in the 80s and 90s that was ignored showing reefs systems were not "ultra low nutrient systems" there was emerging research showing sugars or excess labile DOC palyed a huge role in degradation of reef ecosystems. And the stuff that's been found in the last few years has only hammered home the importance of having healthy microbial processes and the wrong types of DOC in our systems will guarentee failure at some point.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Carbon dosing (sugar, vodka, etc) have been popular before, and while they have improved my testable parameters, I've never seen an improvement in how my tank looks.

I have, and I dosed vinegar primarily for the benefit it provided since I didn't measure or care much about nutrient levels.

The benefit I value from it is to provide food for filter feeders such as sponges, which grew considerably mroe after I starting dosing viengar.

In theory, if Nitrate and Phosphate are both higher than you want, Carbon dosing will lower them. But this is an unusual situation, and you probably are better off doing a water change.

You really think elevated nutrients is an unusual situation?

 

[Dan_P]

I tried to follow this thread, but may need someone to explain in more english terms.

I've been carbon dosing (vodka) about 4-5 months now. SInce I stopped doing water changes. I'm up to 11ml of vodka per day.

My tests show that Phosphates dropped significantly. However, nitrates are, at best being somewhat limited.

My ICP test showed phosphates at .04 (I'm very happy with this number).

My Hana Tester High range nitrate tester shows nitrates reaching 30. Week over week for the last 4 weeks they've been rising about 3-5 per week. And have finally hit the 31-32 mark. I don't know when corals will start to suffer. I noticed recession on one acro, but all other corals are doing great and even the one receeding is still doing amazingly good for nitrates over 30.

I guess, my question is, can carbon dosing fuel the bacteria that help to reduce nitrates if phosphates are limited?

I run a large sized skimmer (Rated at 500 gallons moderate load) and an algae turf scrubber, lights at max and running 22 out of 24 hours a day. I used to run it 16 hours a day and since going up to 22 hours a day I get double the production of hair algae in the scrubber. I have to clean it every 3 days now. After 4 days it starts to plug up both the primary and emergency drains. . .

Do I continue raising my carbon dosing to 12-15 ml per day. . . or more until nitrates start to fall or do I accept I'm limited on how much bacteria I can grow?

Here are couple ideas.

ICP values for phosphorous may not be reliable. Stick to measuring phosphate yourself. Your system could be phosphate depleted.

I have upper limit I use for vinegar dosing, 1 mL per gallon. My system starts to have visible bacteria growth and nitrate begins to nose dive. Phosphate will also start to be used up. I have dosed PO4 during this period. Vodka has very roughly 8 times more organic carbon per mL. My upper limit translates to 1/8 mL per gallon vodka. I see you have a 340 gallon system which means an upper limit of vodka about 40 mL. 11 mL could be too low to see much nitrate reduction.

Your algae scrubber capacity might be too small for the amount of nitrate generated by your system. I have no idea how these things are sized. I have about 2 square feet of Ulva which doubles in volume every 5-7 days for a 100 gallon system. My nitrates came down from 25 and are stuck at 7 ppm. How many square feet if algae do you have, roughly?

 

[MnFish1]

Right let me clarify. My thought process is that when people say "carbon dosing" they use it as a form of no3/po4 export by promoting bacteria growth that would otherwise by "carbon limited" (something about Redfield ratio). Since now we have much more effective other methods of no3/po4 export, it seems carbon dosing is not worth the risk with the good bacteria/bad bacteria issue. Amino dosing to me is worth the risk of adding carbon bc its purpose is to introduce direct coral nutrition, esp for things thats hard for corals to come by naturally via photosynthesis or via capturing in an artificql reef tank setting.

I was under the impression that carbon dosing --> more bacteria -->Bacteria use N and P ---> Bacteria are skimmed out. Thus - N and P export.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, it creates a mess and can grow bacteria that is harmful.

What evidence do you have that it is "Harmful", and what harm is it supposed to cause?

It only creates a mess if you use it inappropriately, as can any additive.

 

[Reefology1]

I was under the impression that carbon dosing --> more bacteria -->Bacteria use N and P ---> Bacteria are skimmed out. Thus - N and P export.

Yes but only the bacteria in the water column that pass through the skimmer can be removed. He is referring to (what he calls) “bad bacteria” that are accumulating on coral tissue.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

What evidence do you have that it is "Harmful", and what harm is it supposed to cause?

It only creates a mess if you use it inappropriately, as can any additive.

When i started carbon dosing issues with STN and brown jelly began and continued. When i stopped, all of the issues stopped. Anecdotal, as is most everything in reefing, but the timing was spot on and didn't really do anything else different.

Do you have any reason to believe that, assuming STN and brown jelly is caused by bacteria, that carbon dosing would not feed such bacteria?

As to the mess and slime, that is what i experienced, which also what Jake Adams said about carbon dosing in one of his reefbuildrers/reef threarpy videos. He talked about slime even getting on his fish. He said it was messy and there are better ways to deal with the same issue. I agree.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kinda, yeah ;D but it is an incredibly complex subject. I'd add some forms of DOC promote autotrophic microbial processes beneficial to corals and some forms promote heterotrophic microbial processes that can be detrimental to corals.



Amino acids are organic nitrogen.

The problem I see with carbon dosing is no one can deterimine whether the microbial processes being promoted are benefiting nuisance algae or corals. Another unkown variable is many sponges and especially the cryptic species ubiquitous in reef systems are processing DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. These sponges are differetnially prcessing DOC depending on the source and may benefit corals or may be part of feedback loops that promote nuisance algae. AquaBiomics tests might be of help but other wise there's no way to determine short term or long term what's happening. Here's a bunch of links. First is Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" While he doesn't touch on sponges his book and video are an excellent introduction to the subject. Then are some videos by scientists researching corals sponges and reef ecosystems most I think will find infromative. hen there's a whole slew of links to papers (some need to be purchased to read but the abstracts will still convey important info for those not inclined to by them). And I think it's important to point out research done at University of Texas in Austin has shown significant differences in immune system resilliancy at the genotype level, so the innate resistance of a clone line is also a factor in these equations.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


DOC can be roughly seperated into three catagories, Labile, Semirefractory and Refractory. Most of the following papaers are looking mainly at Labile DOC. This will raise the hackles on some reefers but keep in mind Labile DOC and Carbon Dosing are pretty much synonamous. Jasper deGeoij's work shows cryptic sponges remove labile DOC about a thousand times faster than bacterioplankton. Included are links to some of the research showing what cryptic sponges are doing as well. Also, researchers seem to use DOM (Dissolved Organic Matter) and DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) interchangebly although for purists there may be important distinctions.

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

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besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms - PubMed

As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And here's some stuff on phosphorus and nitrogen:

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals: Ingenta Connect

www.ingentaconnect.com

Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARY. This study was designed to assess the importance of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) as a nitrogen source for the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. For this purpose, experiments were performed using 15N-enriched DFAAs, and %15N enrichment was measured both in animal tissue and...

journals.biologists.com

Urea a source of nitrogen for corals

Urea uptake by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Urea can be one of the major sources of nitrogen for phytoplankton, but little is known about its importance for corals. Experiments were therefore de…

www.sciencedirect.com

Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals

Diazotrophs: a non-negligible source of nitrogen for the tropical coral Stylophora pistillata - PubMed

Corals are mixotrophs: they are able to fix inorganic carbon through the activity of their symbiotic dinoflagellates and to gain nitrogen from predation on plankton and uptake of dissolved organic and inorganic nutrients. They also live in close association with diverse diazotrophic communities...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism

Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Request PDF

Request PDF | Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Human-mediated increases in nutrient availability alter patterns of primary production, impact species diversity, and threaten ecosystem function.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the uptake of dissolved inorganic nutrients by the algal symbiont and heterotrophic feeding of the coral host. Climate change is expected to...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach (increasing phosphate increases growth)

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Some of your papers are exactly why I dose organic carbon: organisms benefit from it. For example, sponges.

I've yet to see any published or unpublished evidence that acetate causes problems.

Since you are trying to build a case against organic carbon dosing, have you seen any such evidence for acetate?

IMO, to claim that some organic molecules are a problem so acetate is also a problem is no more satisfying than to claim that fish eat corals so should not be kept with corals. Both statements require more direct evidence to be useful.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When i started carbon dosing issues with STN and brown jelly began and continued. When i stopped, all of the issues stopped. Anecdotal, as is most everything in reefing, but the timing was spot on and didn't really do anything else different.

Do you have any reason to believe that, assuming STN and brown jelly is caused by bacteria, that carbon dosing would not feed such bacteria?

As to the mess and slime, that is what i experienced, which also what Jake Adams said about carbon dosing in one of his reefbuildrers/reef threarpy videos. He talked about slime even getting on his fish. He said it was messy and there are better ways to deal with the same issue. I agree.

What did you dose?

Such effects are unusual, but certainly might be real and folks should not start or continue to dose if they already know they have a bacterial disease in the aquarium.

I dosed vinegar up to really massive doses, and at 410 mL a day to by 120 display (~350 gallons total), i did determine it was too much since the water because somewhat hazy and some organisms did not seem optimal (forget exactly what that was), but at 200 mL a day or less, those negative effects disappeared. I never saw any visible bacteria at event the high dose of 2 mL per gallon. 110 mL spread through the lit hours of the day was my standard dose for years.

Folks should NOT equate all organic molecules. I chose acetate because it is consumed by a great many organisms. It is probably the single highest concentration organic molecule in the ocean, at least in turns of turnover, because so many creatures use it. Thus, it is unlikely to drive only a few species.