Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[MnFish1]

To be real i didnt think of this angle. I didnt think people would take what I did or what I said figuratively and believe they could cycle and stock any new cycle tank in 24hrs.
I hope any new reefer especially never runs past this and thinks they can.
What im saying is based on the science of cycling, and if the data in our testing shows a tank is ready for stocking, and our mongering shows its capable of handling bioload im saying why wait? Why even bother with the science can be said both ways. It still doesn't make sense to me why we would wait longer if tank is capable of carrying bioload.
Stocking a tank to reasinable bioload capacity may not be a bad idea and may actually bring alot of benefits than not. What im saying is why not stock a tank with healthy fish and corals to help with that macrobiodiversity as @MnFish1 so kindly phrased it. Ive never seen a more healthy tank by doing so.

The most diversity starts with adding stuff 'immediately' - not adding 10 dime sized frags to a 300 gallon aquarium - with tons of empty space - where other things will outcompete. Again IMHO. The best success I've had with a tank - is buying a ton of colonies - and putting them on rocks - some covered with algae. shortly only the coral was there.

 

[LRT]

Again - the think I think you should try to convince people of - is - lets say I have a brand new 10,000 gallon swimming pool filled with saltwater - I could easily put a pair of clownfish in there with no problem. On the other end is a 5 gallon aquarium - with that same pair dropped in - one of those examples would likely have a problem . So - it (IMHO) comes down to 'bioload' - I do not think its factored into 'cycling; - new or old science - enough.

I know you have a good valid point.
Hopefully we can answer these questions.
I can tell you in my experiments in going to stocking my tanks to capacity they can handle.
My transfer tank showed me alot and perhaps this may be what should be re examined.
I think the threshold is much higher than what we think based in the fact all I really simply did was apply. 006 of ammonia with a few feedings through first cpl days. And my tank full of inhabitants was fully able to carry and handle that.
I do feel like I'm going to see alot of same in experiments. How much I dont know but hopefully we can try and get a little more data on that.

 

[MnFish1]

I know you have a good valid point.
Hopefully we can answer these questions.
I can tell you in my experiments in going to stocking my tanks to capacity they can handle.
My transfer tank showed me alot and perhaps this may be what should be re examined.
I think the threshold is much higher than what we think based in the fact all I really simply did was apply. 006 of ammonia with a few feedings through first cpl days. And my tank full of inhabitants was fully able to carry and handle that.
I do feel like I'm going to see alot of same in experiments. How much I dont know but hopefully we can try and get a little more data on that.

I think a transfer tank is totally different. I have transferred several - over the years - never had a problem. To me - here the debate is a 'new tank'. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[LRT]

I see no evidence from anywhere - that transferring one tank to another new one causes a new 'cycle' - I did not know exactly what you did - I guess. I was under the impression (sorry) that you established an entirely new tank - with coral fish etc - in 24 hours. BTW - I think thats easily doable - with bottled bacteria. But - if you did not - some of my replies may not apply - so to speak

0 bottle bac in fully stocked tank. All gulf live rock from previous system.
I get what your saying but testing did show ammonia cycling, as small and irrelevant as it may seem. I did see a mini cycle based on the data.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

when the directions on the bottled bacteria say - can be used with fish on day 1 - to me the experimentation has already been done. If you look at Dr Reef's experiments - the experiments have already been done

Welcome to the discussion. Glad to have ya here.

I get they have been done and it is on the bottle, but if ya know me, I have to do it to believe it lol.

 

[LRT]

I think a transfer tank is totally different. I have transferred several - over the years - never had a problem. To me - here the debate is a 'new tank'. Maybe I'm wrong?

Yes but the benefits from the applications used in tank transfer are what im after in new tanks in more experiments.
Remember there are a few threads, even threads using bottle bac and dry rock being stocked and fully capable of handling bioload being thrown at them on the boards right now.

 

[Dom]

really? --- Why not? lol there is no honor in waiting 6 weeks - as some people here are doing. Its seriously IMHO - a matter of science - bacteria are bacteria. I'm not trying to criticise - but 'why'? If you can do it in 24 hours - why not? (btw - I can think of a couple reasons - one being a beginner - not doing it correctly)

In my experience, a cycle never took 6 weeks using the "old school" methods.

Part of what drives my position in this thread is my firm belief that if something isn't broken, don't fix it.

I feel that things can go wrong with the accelerated methods, particularly for someone who is just entering the hobby. As an example, any time I have encountered a thread related to a "stalled cycle", it has always been while using an accelerated method.

And to be honest, I've never tried the accelerated methods. But I am planning a new build and fully intend to try it so that I can understand the fuss.

 

[jda]

If you have a diverse tank, things will eat the bacteria on the surfaces and allow new/different kinds to populate. I have heard from some snail and urchin friends of mine that the film is delicious.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes but the benefits from the applications used in tank transfer are what im after in new tanks in more experiments.
Remember there are a few threads, even threads using bottle bac and dry rock being stocked and fully capable of handling bioload being thrown at them on the boards right now.

Yes - I have already said - I have done it for years. My tank ( see build thread) - was basically started that way - with a couple rocks from my other (smaller) tank.

 

[MnFish1]

If you have a diverse tank, things will eat the bacteria on the surfaces and allow new/different kinds to populate. I have heard from some snail and urchin friends of mine that the film is delicious.

Except this is not true - from a scientific standpoint. Or an evolutionary standpoint. The bacteria that are there - want to stay there - and have mechanisms to do so. If they don't - and they are wiped out - it does not increase diversity. It leaves diversity the same (at best)

 

[LRT]

Yes - I have already said - I have done it for years. My tank ( see build thread) - was basically started that way - with a couple rocks from my other (smaller) tank.

Right on really need to get over to your thread man.
I think we have proven that we can transfer tanks 100% successfully. Im actually kind of bored with the transfer tank.
I'm hoping to get more into full cycle and stock brand new tank by applying some of what I learned from transfer tank. I think this is where the fun will come into play again.

 

[LRT]

Except this is not true - from a scientific standpoint. Or an evolutionary standpoint. The bacteria that are there - want to stay there - and have mechanisms to do so. If they don't - and they are wiped out - it does not increase diversity. It leaves diversity the same (at best)

What about the beneficial bacteria from healthy tanks.
I have turned unhealthy systems into healthy fully functioning systems and could literally watch some of the transformations taking place in corals and on surfaces.
Maybe we should be looking at thriving systems and introducing healthy corals from those systems. Ive personally seen the benefits of doing this.
I think alot of this may be handy in future experiments.

 

[Forty-Two]

Disclaimer: I didn’t read all 11 pages. My apologies if it’s been covered.

While technically true a tank can be ‘cycled’ in 1-3 days - I would also argue that the conversation needs to evolve - and that simply ‘cycled’ is not sufficient.

I believe the conversation and testing/experimentation needs to evolve to include how we achieve a ‘biodiverse’ status. Biodiversity provides stability, safety and an ability to have a coral reef tank - not just some FOWLR with algae explosions, or perhaps a couple of softies while fighting all sorts is ‘Uglies’. To me a tank going through the ‘Uglies’ also isn’t fully cycled - or perhaps a better term would be - lacks biodiversity.

just because you’ve technically added bacteria that can support some basic hardy life doesn’t mean you should. The question on my mind is - what is the best what to achieve some level of healthy biodiversity.

I’ve seen some tanks where it’s reported they add many many frags to an otherwise just cycled tank and it seems very successful. While this is counter intuitive to me - perhaps this avenue needs to be explored and documented further - but regardless we need to come up with a new formula for achieving biodiversity faster as I suspect that this problem will only become greater as additional wild sources of biodiversity are removed from the market for environmental reasons.

 

[Stain]

set it up, lots of dry rock, microbacter 7. The next day or two add some fish. Feed heavy. The next day or two add some coral. Next week add more sps. Week after more sps, keep feeding heavy and add more fish if needed. Give the nasty's something to compete with, instead of letting them settle in. Thats how I do it.

 

[Forty-Two]

set it up, lots of dry rock, microbacter 7. The next day or two add some fish. Feed heavy. The next day or two add some coral. Next week add more sps. Week after more sps, keep feeding heavy and add more fish if needed. Give the nasty's something to compete with, instead of letting them settle in. Thats how I do it.

interesting. I hope you don’t mind if I ask some questions - from an analytical perspective.

what size of tank? What were the losses like?

 

[LRT]

Disclaimer: I didn’t read all 11 pages. My apologies if it’s been covered.

While technically true a tank can be ‘cycled’ in 1-3 days - I would also argue that the conversation needs to evolve - and that simply ‘cycled’ is not sufficient.

I believe the conversation and testing/experimentation needs to evolve to include how we achieve a ‘biodiverse’ status. Biodiversity provides stability, safety and an ability to have a coral reef tank - not just some FOWLR with algae explosions, or perhaps a couple of softies while fighting all sorts is ‘Uglies’. To me a tank going through the ‘Uglies’ also isn’t fully cycled - or perhaps a better term would be - lacks biodiversity.

just because you’ve technically added bacteria that can support some basic hardy life doesn’t mean you should. The question on my mind is - what is the best what to achieve some level of healthy biodiversity.

I’ve seen some tanks where it’s reported they add many many frags to an otherwise just cycled tank and it seems very successful. While this is counter intuitive to me - perhaps this avenue needs to be explored and documented further - but regardless we need to come up with a new formula for achieving biodiversity faster as I suspect that this problem will only become greater as additional wild sources of biodiversity are removed from the market for environmental reasons.

Now we are getting to meat and potatoes. Haha alots been covered but it did take 11 pages to get to what my main goal actually was when I started this thread. I feel its highly beneficial to sufficiently stock tank with healthy corals and what they bring in from thriving tank, from day its scientifically cycled using the data.
I hope to show that in first experiment tank.
You nailed it.
I've said it a ton throughout the 11 pages that if I tank is fully capable of handing said bioload. Why would we not stock it for the diversity alone.

 

[Stain]

interesting. I hope you don’t mind if I ask some questions - from an analytical perspective.

what size of tank? What were the losses like?

Not at all, i'll try and answer the best I can. 20gal long display, 20gal long sump now a 40 breeder, same 20long sump. I have had zero losses fish or coral wise. I did get rid of the clowns I first put in, didn't like their attitudes. The 40b has a sixline and tomini tang, and sps. I documented it in my build thread. The 40b is five days 'old', but the rocks/coral/livestock was from the 20 that was started in may.

 

[MnFish1]

Disclaimer: I didn’t read all 11 pages. My apologies if it’s been covered.

While technically true a tank can be ‘cycled’ in 1-3 days - I would also argue that the conversation needs to evolve - and that simply ‘cycled’ is not sufficient.

I believe the conversation and testing/experimentation needs to evolve to include how we achieve a ‘biodiverse’ status. Biodiversity provides stability, safety and an ability to have a coral reef tank - not just some FOWLR with algae explosions, or perhaps a couple of softies while fighting all sorts is ‘Uglies’. To me a tank going through the ‘Uglies’ also isn’t fully cycled - or perhaps a better term would be - lacks biodiversity.

just because you’ve technically added bacteria that can support some basic hardy life doesn’t mean you should. The question on my mind is - what is the best what to achieve some level of healthy biodiversity.

I’ve seen some tanks where it’s reported they add many many frags to an otherwise just cycled tank and it seems very successful. While this is counter intuitive to me - perhaps this avenue needs to be explored and documented further - but regardless we need to come up with a new formula for achieving biodiversity faster as I suspect that this problem will only become greater as additional wild sources of biodiversity are removed from the market for environmental reasons.

When you're able to prove what 'biodiverse' is, and that as time goes on, tanks tend to become less biodiverase as compared to more - I'll understand better. There is not unlimited niche's in the tank for every single bacteria that added - just like if you added 200 corals to 100 gallons - in 6 months - there would likely not be 200 corals, there would be 50. Biodiversity in the tank is a myth, IMHO. And - there is no way to effectively measure it. For example I did the DNA test - the standard way - my tank was not that 'biodiverse'. After swishing my hand over the rocks a couple times - my tank was among the most 'biodiverse'. So - how do we tell?

 

[Dan_P]

No new steps. Same old cycle. Setting up new tank and going through same procedures following same protocol.
New equipment. Better ways of testing. Real time more accurate data. Applying new science to old rules.
I know you've done experiments with seneye. Would you say that seneye could be a better and more accurate tool than color coded test kits?

I might be understanding the discussion a bit better now. I have been studying biofilm formation of the Bio-Spira bacteria and wanted to see what you had learned about cycling.

Yes I had a chance to put the Seneye through its paces. I was favorably impressed with its ammonia detection but also confirmed what I suspected. The Seneye is sensitive but not necessarily accurate over a large range. If you are doing research, the instrument like all instruments must be calibrated.

The salicylate colorimetric test when paired with a spectrometer or Hanna photometer can detect total ammonia down to 0.05 and 0.10 ppm, which corresponds to approximately 0.005-0.01 ppm free ammonia. The Seneye would certainly be much less work to measure ammonia and the electronic trending option of the data could be useful.

 

[LRT]

I might be understanding the discussion a bit better now. I have been studying biofilm formation of the Bio-Spira bacteria and wanted to see what you had learned about cycling.

Yes I had a chance to put the Seneye through its paces. I was favorably impressed with its ammonia detection but also confirmed what I suspected. The Seneye is sensitive but not necessarily accurate over a large range. If you are doing research, the instrument like all instruments must be calibrated.

The salicylate colorimetric test when paired with a spectrometer or Hanna photometer can detect total ammonia down to 0.05 and 0.10 ppm, which corresponds to approximately 0.005-0.01 ppm free ammonia. The Seneye would certainly be much less work to measure ammonia and the electronic trending option of the data could be useful.

Thanks Dan. I was thinking about grabbing hanna ammonia checker with the nitrite checker for more control to cross refference to. I have to be honest ive seen alot of inaccuracies with seneye on other levels so will be awesome to have different tools to cross refference to. One thing the seneye has been really good for me with is tracking ammonia trend. Regardless of what its actually picking up it shows the peak trend and down tracking of ammonia and thats really only how im applying its use here.
I'm glad your seeing it now it kinda took several pages to get to what im hoping to see more of. Just how much bioload can a fully cycled/livestock ready tank carry. And how much ammonia will it take to get there. How fast and full can i stock it. What will the data show along the way and after being stocked and stable. I do plan on using healthy corals, rubble, plugs, discs they are stuck on in my experiments as well as I believe it will be super beneficial here. Especially with getting surfaces covered with desirable things like corals and 0 uglies. At least that's what im seeing in recent tank transfer. I want to see how it plays out in new fully cycled tank this time.