Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[jda]

You all think that there are only one kind of autotroph or heterotrophs in the ocean and in our tanks? I have heard much to the opposite. Where did you hear this and were can I read up on it? I have heard from some bacteriologists that there are many different strains and some that even unidentified and unclassified still.

 

[LRT]

I have a question for the crowd


how many days to completion will this arrangement take to become cycled and reliably carry bioloading as fish:

set of marco rocks filled up in tank

new water, heated with circulation

bottle of fritz, half a bottle of Dr. Tims, a few pinches of fish food.


in every home on the planet, how many days does that take to ethically carry bioload?

I'm going to play it safe and stick to my guns and say when ammonia tops out and returns back closer to 0.
I was going to get super crazy and say I've seen this happen in as little as 12 hrs.
Then I realized your question was based of dry rock bottle bac.
I'm hoping to be able to join that discussion soon.

 

[brandon429]

Attiland thank you for posting that agreed that will work


bottle bac circumvent the wait process to the ire of most test kit wielders, but not all

and when put through precision testing, coming up it seems we're going to get some testing on the matter, these bottle bac mixtures will shine in their ability to consume raw ammonia.


JDA agreed there as well, they're using strains that accomplish both sludge digestion and nitrification although they never tested too well on the sludge digestion claims in the chemistry forum, Taricha's thread on Waste away for example.

mb7 is also a common dual use doser/cleaning plus cycling ability.

the streamlined ones like biospira and Fritz are primarily lighting fast ammonia consumers right out of the gate.


my vote on the timeframe is zero days, that's a skip cycle arrangement.

on any seneye post ever made for dr tims and fritz, they were ready on day one, and didn't let the ammonia rise. its a skip cycle arrangement, waiting to day 30 doesn't get you better filtration, or more disease resistance.

 

[brandon429]

New Cycle - Seneye vs API

Hello All, Have just started to cycle a new DD ReefPro 900. Am using Fritzzyme Fishless food and Turbo Start and am 2 days in. I have dosed twice with Fishless food on the back of the seneye readings which are as follows: But the API result seems to be showing a different story. I`ve seen a...

www.reef2reef.com

we keep using this thread lol just noticed. that's because it may be one of the most impactful cycling threads seen in the last 3 years/

there must be about four or five serious details in the logs he's providing that answer core, core clues about what aquarium filters do in reef tanks. heck its bordering on being a rosetta stone post for new cycling science / depends on the perspective I guess.

Jon Malkerson don't think I forgot your logged seneye tunings for bottle bac.

Dr. Tims carries fish right out of the gate, he found. No burn, even Dr. Tims bac + common dilution is a skip cycle arrangement.

the point of the link above was that on day one his display was about as powerful as a full running benchmark reef. his ammonia processing ability on day one was just about exact in ability, to the hundredths ppm nh3, as a full running reef tank also there to prove readings and constants and dosed that right out of a bottle of fritz.

and the whole time api lied like a dog.

 

[Lasse]

You all think that there are only one kind of autotroph or heterotrophs in the ocean and in our tanks? I have heard much to the opposite. Where did you hear this and were can I read up on it? I have heard from some bacteriologists that there are many different strains and some that even unidentified and unclassified still.

That's true but what differ the most is growrate there heterotrophs normally grow much faster compared with autotrophs. AOB and AOA (ammonium oxidizing bacteria and archaea) are rather diverse but for NOB (Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria) - I know only two genera - Nitrobacter and Nitrospira

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

IMHO - you need to define 'cycle'. Some people think - if you take a picture of the tank - and the fish are swimming, thats cycled. Some thing you need 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrate. I think the common sense answer - is just follow the instructions on whatever bottled bacteria - (or not) product you're using. If the bottle says - you can safely add fish - add them. Don't add 3 products, Just add per the instructions. If you're adding a lot of fish - add a little more (that is on the directions of many bottled bacteria - stating - an overdose is not harmful). I do not get how this is even a controversy.

As compared to those who say this is 'new science' - its been going on for years - I have set up many freshwater ponds, aquaria - and saltwater aquaria - with no long cycling. Its not hard. And it was done without any ammonia tests.

There is now the buzzword - diversity - that if you wait long enough - or add enough bacteria - you are adding diversity - IMHO - this is false. Diversity is added by adding stuff to the tank.

An interesting aquabiomics experiment would be to check a tank on a weekly basis - starting day 0 (saltwater), and every week thereafter - after adding bottled bacteria, fish, etc etc etc. The rest seems to me to be all conjecture

 

[MnFish1]

This tank broke my brain. The exact rules, science and data that I applied to my instastock was used on this one.
Except one major difference. Dry rock and bottle bac was used on that tank.
Mine was fully cured live gulf rock.
Totally crazy man

They must have used the recommendations in the fish disease forum

 

[MnFish1]

Because the "old school" methods teach patience. And in this hobby, if you are unwilling to be patient, you will fail or have a much more difficult time achieving success.

Defend this statement. To me (and I'm not trying to be insulting) - its ridiculous. You can be patient - sure that works - but - there is no evidence out there that quicker methods 'don't work' - in fact - there is a lot of evidence that they do work. There are a lot of buzz words used - the tank needs more 'diversity'. 'Live foods', etc - but - if you look at the facts - they seem not to be correct.

 

[MnFish1]

That's true but what differ the most is growrate there heterotrophs normally grow much faster compared with autotrophs. AOB and AOA (ammonium oxidizing bacteria and archaea) are rather diverse but for NOB (Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria) - I know only two genera - Nitrobacter and Nitrospira

Sincerely Lasse

How about archaea

 

[MnFish1]

Patience in cycling is killing fish by the bucket load


old schoolers with 27 year old reef rocks don’t teach new cyclers with new rocks about disease preps, in fact they advise new cyclers to skip preps. I’ve seen Lasse advise members on disease preps this isn’t aimed at Lasse.

we see how skipping disease prep is turning out in the disease forum, fish loss by bucket loads.

new cyclers are commonly advised to hyper focus on patience, waiting for nitrite compliance, at the cost of prepping incoming fish against disease

Patience needs to be re aimed 100% into disease preps, the cycle is done when it’s dosed from a bottle or moved over as skip cycle substrates.


we defined three types of cycles- skip cycling doesn’t require patience or waiting at all. See how old cycling lumps every action into a hesitation period, waiting for the wrong parameters to clear out?


old cycling science is bad, and harms the hobby. When we select the type of cycle we want, we run that method specific to the substrate in question without hesitation, we prep for disease, this is new cycling science.

This Is totally off topic. The quarantine/no quarantine debate is all good - the FACT is according to surveys here - MOST people do not QT - and most of those people have no problems - I am not going to crowd source all of those threads - I'm sure you've read them

 

[MnFish1]

I agree it’s the top cycling bac of all and works exactly as claimed. Fritz does amazing things. Adding Fritz completely removes any concern over cycling.

Does this mean - that the rest of yours posts can just say 'use Fritz'. Can we put a sticky at the top of every topic on the forum. Just so that everyone gets it. BTW - I agree with you - Fritz takes care of cycling. Why are we still discussing it?

 

[MnFish1]

Why wait 48 hrs?
I've proven i can cycle a tank and fully stock it in 24hrs.
Point is why in the world would we wait any longer to stock a tank if its been fully cycled and capable of carrying bioload of fully stocked tank?

What is 'cycled'? You mean no ammonia? That is not 'cycled'. It may support fish (and I'm sure it does - I've done it many times) - but cycled has many definitions. What is yours?

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure of that. Cycling of the nitrification process means that you have working biofilm on most of your substrates available to process your load. you had that on all of your corals when you move them in - you did have to wait for the nitrification organism to establish themselves on your substrate. The time it takes for these organisms to build up - that´s the nitrification cycling time. You just bring in the biofilm with your corals direct

Sincerely Lasse

This to me is the point - what is the definition of 'cycled' - is it - no ammonia after adding fish - or is it controlling ammonia, nitrite and in some cases nitrate. I do no water changes - yet I have very small levels of nitrate. Why? I have big fish that eat a lot. Is the nitrate being processed to N2? Probably - But - IDK. The point - as compared to some here - I think yes - you can easily add bacteria to allow fish to live in a tank almost instantly. BUT - will the rest of the success fall into place more quickly - that im less sure of.

 

[MnFish1]

We are still cutting hairs.
According to definition of cycling i did experience a bump in ammonia at least 3 x and them back to 0. Sure it was never more than .006 after first few feedings for first cpl days. But as small as it was I did experience a "cycle" by definition. A cycle is a cycle that we can see in the data I think we can at least agree on that.
Agreed i brought over all the necessary biodiversity from my rock and coral plugs etc..

Having said that.
If a reefer goes through the motions of cycling tank properly and tank is fully capable of maintaining bioload. Should we wait another 3 months or is there a benefit of adding more biodiversity with the addition of stocking the tank with corals and what comes with them from healthy established tank. Do you feel it could possibly aid in getting the rest of the new surfaces covered more quickly?
You see absoloutely no benefit to this at all?

I think the thought of 'adding more biodiversity' - is a buzzword, myth. Its been shown (AFAIK) that biodiversity decreases over time - not increases - in an established tank. If you're talking about adding macrobiodiversity - like corals, etc etc - yes - I think thats a great idea

 

[MnFish1]

I have no issue with testing this, but I will not use critters to test. I will do some digging to see if I can figure out exactly how much ammonia a common fish can produce (clownfish for example) and then go from there.

I would think that one could show if all dry rock, all dry sand and all new equipment could process ammonia or not process ammonia from the get go with the addition of bottled bacteria or macros. My only concern would be the macros have a biofilm on them that is basically like cheating. I have no way to examine that, so may need to do that as a separate test.

The problem I see is knowing how much ammonia production a day, hour, minute to use as a starting point. This is where I can see it getting tricky. I have never looked into how many times fish pee in a day or how fast the food I feed takes to turn into ammonia, so one would have to do multiple tests at different levels of ammonia being dosed at all different times to gauge how well it works. That mean a lot of tests over and over with all new sterile starts. At least that is how I am looking at it.

The above is thinking out loud and may be a little scattered, so let me do some digging and see what I can come up with.

when the directions on the bottled bacteria say - can be used with fish on day 1 - to me the experimentation has already been done. If you look at Dr Reef's experiments - the experiments have already been done

 

[Cell]

You all think that there are only one kind of autotroph or heterotrophs in the ocean and in our tanks? I have heard much to the opposite. Where did you hear this and were can I read up on it? I have heard from some bacteriologists that there are many different strains and some that even unidentified and unclassified still.

Perhaps @AquaBiomics has some insight here.

 

[MnFish1]

It won't matter eventually since the bacteria from the intestines/guts of a fish or invert can populate many more strains that come in the bottle. So can stuff that comes in on frag plugs or other things that you introduce from tanks. I don't think that bacteria compete like people think that they do... they all can coexist as long as there is food and space. Eventually, you will get a lot of different kinds... just not so much in a cycle with just bottle based strains.

The microfauna is another issue... have to introduce those somehow.

They do compete - exactly as people do - when there are no further niches available for the bacteria to enter. Its widely described - and confirmed in the literature.

 

[MnFish1]

I have a question for the crowd


how many days to completion will this arrangement take to become cycled and reliably carry bioloading as fish:

set of marco rocks filled up in tank

new water, heated with circulation

bottle of fritz, half a bottle of Dr. Tims, a few pinches of fish food.


in every home on the planet, how many days does that take to ethically carry bioload?

HOW MUCH BIOLOAD?????

 

[LRT]

What is 'cycled'? You mean no ammonia? That is not 'cycled'. It may support fish (and I'm sure it does - I've done it many times) - but cycled has many definitions. What is yours?

Welcome to the show man now its a party haha!
Thats the million dollar question we have been asking in a few threads now.
Proper definition of cycled tank.
I think we have narrowed down a proper scientific cycle consists of ammonia peaking and dropping back down to closest to 0.
This is the control I used in my transfer tanks and the control ill be using with future experiments.
How much ammonia for what size bioload hasn't been determined yet.
To answer your question though I don't believe a tank actually ever technically stops cycling as it matures.

 

[MnFish1]

Welcome to the show man now its a party haha!
Thats the million dollar question we have been asking in a few threads now.
Proper definition of cycled tank.
I think we have narrowed down a proper scientific cycle consists of ammonia peaking and dropping back down to closest to 0.
This is the control I used in my transfer tanks and the control ill be using with future experiments.
How much ammonia for what size bioload hasn't been determined yet.
To answer your question though I don't believe a tank actually ever technically stops cycling as it matures.

Actually - I think a very vocal poster thinks that once you have enough 'time' (whatever that is) - and fish swimming - thats a cycle. That may or may not be the case - depending on the 'stuff' being put into the tank.

I do not believe - for example (and I haven't seen 10000 threads documenting it) - that if you take a tank "cycled" with 2 clown fish (lets say a 100 gallon) - could withstand the addition of 5 4 inch yellow tangs. This is the proposal - though as far as I understand it