New Cycle - Seneye vs API

UKReefer67

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Hello All,

Have just started to cycle a new DD ReefPro 900. Am using Fritzzyme Fishless food and Turbo Start and am 2 days in. I have dosed twice with Fishless food on the back of the seneye readings which are as follows:
1631726249815.png

But the API result seems to be showing a different story.
1631726302650.png

I`ve seen a few posts on here about the difference between the Seneye NH3+ reading and the TAM as measured by the API Kit but nothing that really explains whether the Seneye is measuring correctly at that level and if so, the relationship between the 0.041 value and the 2(ish) ppm showing up on the API - which is what I would expect. Also, am I correct in assuming that by dosin with bacteria and fishless fuel that I would expect to the see nitrate and nitrite levels shown on day 2 of the cycle?

Hope that makes sense, I have only cycled a small tank previously and did that with live rock and sand which cycled so fast I missed it!

Thanks,

G
 
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brandon429

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Great thread, so rare to see these two comparisons. The cycle is ready (fritz is fastest) and the seneye likely hasnt been trimmed yet or it would read in the thousandths

the seneye measures above are directly in safe range for nh3, and after a water change your bioload isn't even going to run that much.

this post you made shows how far off the mark api is when compared to seneye, great job


have you trimmed the seneye into accuracy yet using a different display tank? Even the untrimmed reading above is safe zone nh3 compared to that heinous over read by api, even if it’s reporting as total ammonia. It’s still way off, compared to what the best bac can do. It’s done because nitrite doesn’t factor any longer, nitrate may not be accurate when tested for same reasons as above, and fritz has already been tested to work in a day. You’re past that wait time.

thousands of tanks have done dry rock + Fritz + clownfish with zero wait time, you're two days into the wait and even those skip cycle attempts tested out fine on seneye. quick cycling is no longer bad, its a function of paying forty bucks for super concentrate in a bottle.
 
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MnFish1

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The API test measures a totally different range than the Seneye. Between 0 and 0.25 you're just guessing with the color - neither test is better or worse than the other IMHO. They are measuring with a different precision and accuracy. I might suggest that you look on the API site - and check out the error in the measurements- with the ammonia test. Second - I would trust the seneye assuming its calibrated correctly - over the API. You can't really test 2 methods against each-other without a third confirmatory 'gold standard' test. In this case you already have the seneye assuming its working
 

brandon429

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out of the box some units require trimming/ its why the feature exists. Once trimmed, you have the best ammonia meter we can own able to slice through all false claims about stalled cycles, we're seeing it above. Your seneye above is the one you'd count on, and its only slightly above truth if we factor the very well-tested ability of Fritz on seneye cycles, I've seen many, your cycle is ready. add only disease prepped fish; though your tank can carry fish, if you add diseased ones from a pet store, most die within the first eight months.


Fritz has been tested to require 24-48 hours to be all adhered, not affected by 100% water changes its in Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread for proof, its why I would claim a set of rocks this new is still ready vs the classic mode of wait 2 more months, you paid to be ready at this time. thousands use the bac for total skip cycling, fish + bac and dry rock on day one, those track out fine as well when tested on seneye

you're not being speedy, imprudent or rushing at all, this bottle bac costs that much because of what it can do. They weren't selling forty dollar snake water, they were selling the top bottled bac tested in Dr. Reefs massive bottle bac cycling thread, the timing of which I'm relaying here to save you the read.

This post you made will be used in many ways, its a rare rare rare rare rare calibration post between seneye and the #1 cause of misread cycles the hobby has ever known. Api has no excuse for that, even TAN converted to nh3 that's off the charts and fritz at two days does not allow ammonia off the charts, not ever.

post a full tank shot, so we can see working surface area/ rocks and sand as they sit in the prepped display

if that tank was mine I'd do this: let it sit five more days, change out half the water for new, choose your starting bioload carefully and never add bottle bac to the system again/already paid for it once, and paid well.

I know you've read about nitrite in cycling, here at this location we don't factor nitrite in cycling because of Randy's article online about nitrite in the reef tank. we factor only ammonia control, and if seneye didn't exist everything I've written above would sound crazier than normal. in this instance, having seneye is pure vindication lol.
 
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UKReefer67

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heres why trimming a seneye matters: I have a six page seneye misread thread made up solely of untrimmed units that when trimmed, read correctly.

display tank run in the thousandths ppm not the hundredths, bottle bac systems in displays vs QT run in the thousandths not the hundredths ppm nh3...we need to see your meter able to even register in the thousandths before its spot-on accepted as perfect.

specifically, out of the box some units require trimming/ its why the feature exists. Once trimmed, you have the best ammonia meter we can own able to slice through all false claims about stalled cycles, we're seeing it above. Your seneye above is the one you'd count on, and its only slightly above truth if we factor the very well-tested ability of Fritz on seneye cycles, I've seen many, your cycle is ready. add only disease prepped fish; though your tank can carry fish, if you add diseased ones from a pet store, most die within the first eight months.


Fritz has been tested to require 24-48 hours to be all adhered, not affected by 100% water changes its in Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread for proof, its why I would claim a set of rocks this new is still ready vs the classic mode of wait 2 more months, you paid to be ready at this time. thousands use the bac for total skip cycling, fish + bac and dry rock on day one, those track out fine as well when tested on seneye

you're not being speedy, imprudent or rushing at all, this bottle bac costs that much because of what it can do. They weren't selling forty dollar snake water, they were selling the top bottled bac tested in Dr. Reefs massive bottle bac cycling thread, the timing of which I'm relaying here to save you the read.

This post you made will be used in many ways, its a rare rare rare rare rare calibration post between seneye and the #1 cause of misread cycles the hobby has ever known. Api has no excuse for that, even TAN converted to nh3 that's off the charts and fritz at two days does not allow ammonia off the charts, not ever.

post a full tank shot, so we can see working surface area/ rocks and sand as they sit in the prepped display

if that tank was mine I'd do this: let it sit five more days, change out half the water for new, choose your starting bioload carefully and never add bottle bac to the system again/already paid for it once, and paid well.

I know you've read about nitrite in cycling, here at this location we don't factor nitrite in cycling because of Randy's article online about nitrite in the reef tank. we factor only ammonia control, and if seneye didn't exist everything I've written above would sound crazier than normal. in this instance, having seneye is pure vindication lol.
Really great reply and looks like I`ve waded into an interesting debate. I have not trimmed the seneye, simply because I dont have anything other than the API test to calibrate it against. I have my little EVO13 sitting next to it which has been happily up and running for a couple of years so are you suggesting I trim against readings from that tank?

Here`s a shot of the tank - at the moment there is a sligth haze in the water - not visible in the photo. I am certainly going to let it side for a while longer and keep checking the seneye - its become a bit of an obsession already!!

1631731242251.png
 
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brandon429

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please yes without any adjustment, move the seneye into the known cycled display lets see what it reads, before any adjustment.

/has a working display to instantly benchmark against, all displays run .002-.009 nh3 on seneye, what a convergence of aquaria you have!

**your machine may not need benching/trims Ill tell you why: it still shows precision changes now, even if your baseline is a bit high. there really isn't any practical setting in reefing you must be able to read in the thousandths...staying out of the tenths is key and your machine shows that right now w no tweaks at all.


sometimes even the slides themselves change in reading a bit with age...# of days soaked in water also makes a trimming difference. yours is darn close, darn close above as it sits I bet.
 

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Agreed. I do trust the inaccuracies with seneye to not really be a concern here.
I feel like regardless of what level of ammonia the seneye picks up, its been recorded, if it drops it to 0 I say done. At least thats how it worked in my last 2 tanks cycled this way..
Ive only had api amm test kit read 0 once and it could have been tester error.
 

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you won three heart posts in a row, I save that only for the most appealing posts you should know. my cycling heart is not on the sleeve


I'd not mess with calibration that unit is darn close enough for horseshoes or undoing all old cycling rules from 1993-2020 ish lol. thank you very much for inputs. the machine is simply close enough to roll as is, if it ever hits tenths then youve got two dead tangs degrading in the rocks and nothing shy of that will do tenths.

what I was meaning above is that our hobby is on the verge of big change, big market change and procedure and the advent of these digital machines that cross-check so well on running systems, they meet prediction levels set before the test, is the harbinger of this change.


cyclers have been led by api, red sea and salifert, agreed with MN no tan conversion is a big deal but even after tan they're still unacceptably high in the majority, not minority of cases (not red sea, agreed after TAN they're usually saying .02 really they are, api is the fouler lol)


Your final proof seneye at a mere half of the .04 calibrates that device, and your cycle, profoundly.


and yet with api that green we still doubt, admit it :)
b

do a water change of any degree, proceed. your real nh3 is .002-.009 and if the meter doesnt show that, nobody minds. its so darn close save all the tuning headache and enjoy ammonia control verification. the most expensive bottle bac sold has worked within the timeframes Dr. Reef charted it to work.
 
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I do see one real flaw in trusting the seneye 100% here.
Bottle bac was used and can tell you that bottle bac absoloutely will throw off seneye readings. Especially Fritz Turbo from personal observation.
Not saying it will happen all the time I'm saying its happened the only 2 times I've used the product tracking with seneye so for whatever that's worth.
As long as Evo readings are tracking the same as they where before and after you put the slide in water with Fritz Turbo you are probably ok.
 

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nice. I like how close his nh3 was in the known control vs the cycling tank, that's one of the tightest ranges I've seen on non trimmed machines.


hey was Prime added here at any step? Prime is a known spiker of API reads, just curious. I never knew if Prime could affect seneye, I think Dan said it doesn't / can't recall.
 
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UKReefer67

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Nothing other than water, salt and the fritzzyme already mentioned added to the tank.

I have to say I am absolutely staggered by the fact that the cycle seems over within 2 days! As you said, still needs a deep breath give that the API is THAT green!

will leave it to the weekend, do a partial water change and transfer the pair of green chromis I’ve had waiting in the Evo and update then.

thanks for the input- fantastic forum!

G
 

brandon429

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thank you very much for sure. I wanted you to see the study referenced earlier claiming 2 days time/ instant carry ability out of the gate: this is Dr. Reef's bottle bac cycling thread.


quick summary: the way he assesses readiness dates per brand is by making the mix in standard ten gallon tanks, and letting each one sit different # of days before a 100% water change. then he doses ammonia, and sees who can pass, logs the time in terms of fastest adhering to slowest.

Fritz wins, biospira and Dr Tims about as good and cheaper too/no fridge required. Fritz wins though, its 24-48 hour adhering bacteria.

see how that's such a powerful audit? No suspended bac can help like they do in yours. Only adhered bac... ones immune to any degree of water changes-that's the true definition of a ready cycle it has nothing to do with moving 2 ppm ammonia down to zero like the old rules said. Reef tanks dont hit zero. They run in the thousandths

your tank has both suspended bac and adhered bac and the actual range when trimmed for your display nano is .002-.009, that's what displays run at (never in the tenths, surface area + current doesn't allow tenths)

that means your real nh3 now if trimmed on that seneye shows 100% cycled here, you're lower than the hundredths range. amazing post. we already know what your nh3 range for the established pico would be, we get those patterns from the now thousands of available seneye logs online and the analysis of trimmed vs untrimmed ones.

your bottle bac + mere two days wait got you to within two one hundredths of a cycled reef :)

thats darn good bac!
 
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brandon429

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UKReefer67 can you post a pic of the nano display tank we calibrated on

the big tie-in for it all is the degree of surface area these tanks always scale to...even if its a nano vs large display, we're all grossly vastly overdone on surface area and this can be shown with the updated pic of your calibration nano.
 
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UKReefer67

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Here you go... (you can see why I need a bigger tank now! I know its in a state, am wating to trasnfer some over to the DD and tidy it all up a bit - everyones happy inside though... even the asterinas and aptasia :rolleyes:)
1631810992209.png
 
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UKReefer67

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And todats Seneye vs. API - I have made no changes to the tank at all. NH3 consistently dropping slowly on the Seneye - looks as thought its lower on the API too. pH is dropping slowly - will see how things are at the weekend when I do a 20% water change. (the little spike in pH is when we transferred the seneye to the Evo last night...)
1631812639733.png

1631812734043.png
 

LRT

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And todats Seneye vs. API - I have made no changes to the tank at all. NH3 consistently dropping slowly on the Seneye - looks as thought its lower on the API too. pH is dropping slowly - will see how things are at the weekend when I do a 20% water change. (the little spike in pH is when we transferred the seneye to the Evo last night...)
1631812639733.png

1631812734043.png
Awesome whats your plan as far as stocking the tank?
I'm super interested to see what your ammonia does with a few critters and a little bit of feeding.
 

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the thread has every form of picture and calibration comparison we could want to see in cycling analyses thank you vm for these updates

I was hoping the nano would be packed vs sparse, it truly is. you have a 1/10th scale model of ten thousand dollar full sized reef tanks here lol and what it reads on your seneye is the ultimate in bottom-line benchmarking for running systems.

*were we to ever get lucky, seeing that meter in an even larger reef display sure would be a new dynamic investigated for the claimed scaled nature of nh3 rates in reefing (I believe displays run in the thousandths even when small with few fish or large with many fish, the nh3 oxidation rate scales large to small and vice versa it is thought-a function of surface area not volume)

eventually that one slide is going to drift, they have a finite lifespan but in this sweet spot you get to use it in these ways as benchmarks/proof runs etc. I can't recall if the average slide lasts 30 or 60 days, one of those two I think

two one hundredths ppm nh3 turns that api from hard yellow to solid green, no middle ground/ wow.
 
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