New Cycle - Seneye vs API

brandon429

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also handy: these slides dont last forever, so when the nh3 starts creeping or dropping abnormally its not a real event, what you're seeing right now is the real event.

the inherent nh3 control process remains as long as rocks stay wet, you can’t starve or stall this cycle and that means if you never ran seneye again on the tank, it’s fine. Your ammonia will always follow the ammonia line from a cycling chart and only hardware fails or fish disease wipeouts could ever overcome the biosystem via ammonia events; having an ammonia meter in place can’t prevent those events.

ammonia will never rise on its own accord out of control as long as the rocks stay wet—new cycling science.

your tank can endure common over feed events and common fish losses left in the tank, all common mistakes absorbed. it would take a large scale fish kill to ever overcome the controls in place in this display tank.
 
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also handy: these slides dont last forever, so when the nh3 starts creeping or dropping abnormally its not a real event, what you're seeing right now is the real event.
Id be more concerned to know what all params are doing 100% of the time and looking for anything out of ordinary not tracking correctly.
Ive found temp directly effects ph to what id consider totally unacceptable levels. You can literally watch them swing together all over the place even while trimming it.
I know that has nothing to do with ammonia. And may not effect the ammonia reading at all. It does create doubt with the slides that if those particular params are slipping so solidly and together then whats happening with the others while this is happening?
I've also found both new and old slides to be most wonky and all over the place especially in new tank start ups and at the end of the age of slide.


Having said all that I still am in total agreement that whatever ammonia reading the seneye picked up it did track back to acceptable levels.
I just haven't observed much to say I can actually trust seneye to be reading 100% correct on any level at any given time.
 

brandon429

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Excellent. I have referenced your seneye observations too in posts your kit has been fun to watch in different applications
 

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Excellent. I have referenced your seneye observations too in posts your kit has been fun to watch in different applications
I wish I had another seneye to do side by comparisons with more control! I may have gotten a machine that may be faulty with temp. Idk.
I haven't seen other users post with same issues I've had.
 

brandon429

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UKReefer67 hey can I request an API updated post test on the new display against its card backing/tracking delayed declines if any.
 
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UKReefer67

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Hello All,

Latest update on this cycle.. Seneye reading is as follows:
1633449038267.png

NH3 readings from the very start on the 13th Sept
1633449067720.png

API Result today..
1633449121993.png
 
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UKReefer67

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UKReefer67 hey can I request an API updated post test on the new display against its card backing/tracking delayed declines if any.
Hope the update above is what you were after - if you want anything else, pls shout. I`m planning on riding out the diatoms maybe with some snails when it gets bad enough. I see so many posts with people dosing this and that and then the tank going haywire. For this build I`m looking to keep things as natural as possible, water changes and biological controls only... fingers crossed ;-)
 

brandon429

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it was 100% what we needed to see thank you very much, these updates allow us to track convergence or divergence among bioload presentation, water clarity, and cycle indication status between test kit types. And that divergence is unacceptably large lol

the nh3 is getting safer while api locks into place, even after tan conversion that's overreporting by API. enough to cause second round bottle bac purchases from two million cyclers.

This thread will remain a top help to new cyclers.
 
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brandon429

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hows the tank doing, all clear/eating well too

I hate to bug but there's so much data here that is new, not seen

can you re take a reading using this same seneye setup above reading .003 back on the matured nano

if it moves up to hundredths again that's a big deal.
 
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UKReefer67

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hows the tank doing, all clear/eating well too

I hate to bug but there's so much data here that is new, not seen

can you re take a reading using this same seneye setup above reading .003 back on the matured nano

if it moves up to hundredths again that's a big deal.
The tank is perfect apart from starting to get a bit ugly with the diatoms. Water is crystal and the fish are perky and feeding well. All corals are fully out every day - I have a cabbage softy at the bottom and I swear its doubled in size since I put it in a week or so ago.

I`ll drop the Seneye in the Nano overnight to get a good long read and post back tomorrow.

I think that not the cycle is more or less done, there's not much use for it really! I`ve got 6 months worth of slides though! so I can do lots more experiments :D
 

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This is really interesting and can be super helpful to reefers moving forward. Assuming seneye was correct in its ammonia reading that would make api ammonia kit way off. Who knows about Api Nitrites if ammonia was so far gone.
Would be awesome to see this done again but with an ammonia strip to refference back to api and seneye. As well as another test kit to cross refference nitrite back to.
Making me want to grab some more slides!
 

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I like api for this type of assessment: if you haven’t added prime lately and api is pegged solid green, a fish or three you haven’t seen in two days likely aren’t coming back.

only for something that pronounced


not for hundredths or thousandths ppm cycle start date assessments, they vary too much at low levels when there really is legit presence of free ammonia as all running tanks have.

I agree many api cycles drop to near yellow


but when they don’t it means the kit isn’t right, the cycle didn’t vary off known timelines that all tanks follow given certain assembly constants.


we are learning in cycling 2021 that the kits vary, not the legit bioload carry start dates. I can’t find a single reef active in the whole board right now who can’t legit carry fish

reef2reef has a 100% ready start date for every posting tank, amazing.


any other board we sample right now: 70% are not ready, wait longer. that means something big time.



Every tank in the new tank forum posting right now is ready for fish, they’re exactly like this tank from UKReefer67, they're ~ day ten in waiting using bottle bac that can instantly carry bioload and control free ammonia.

Cycling science is changing, seneye is driving it. If they don’t own seneye all they know is to wait longer. The key in today’s cycling is anticipating fish disease losses, as no known cycles have failed they all worked fine we are just lucky to get to measure it well for once.
 
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UKReefer67

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Hello All - Sorry this took longer to post than promised.

I left the Seneye in the mature nano overnight to let it stabilize which I didnt do last time. This time, it read around 0.011 whereas the new display tank had dropped to >0.005 by that point.

Today (a week later) the new display is reading 0.001 on the Seneye. The diatom outbreak has more or less cleared up and I have added a couple of Bengai cardinals and a brown sailfin Tang to the livestock along with a few more corals. The Seneye readings have not faltered from that point.

Here is todays API:

1633981961606.png
 
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And as a final summary of my cycle:

This was a DD ReefPro 900:

WATER VOLUMEDIMENSIONS
SYSTEM290 litres
TANK225 litres
SUMP65 litres

Cycle Timeline and Observations:

DateObservation/ActivityCommentSeneyeAPI
13th SepTank FillDry Rock and Sand
13th SepTurbo Start and Fishless FuelDosed to achieve 2ppm0.002 to 0.036Not Used
14th SepMore Fishless FuelDosed to achieve 2ppm0.031 to 0.044Ammonia >2ppm
17th Sephalf dose of Finshless FuelDosed to achieve 2ppm, posted on R2R - whats going on!?0.036 to 0.042Ammonia >2ppm
19th SepTurned on Skimmer
19th Sep50L Water Change
0.032​
Ammonia >2ppm, Nitrite >2ppm, Nitrate >2ppm
19th SepAdded 2 ChromisEncouraged by discussion on R2R re: cycle status so added fish and watched closely for signs of stress - none seen
0.032​
Ammonia >2ppm, Nitrite >2ppm, Nitrate >2ppm
26th SepAdded 2 ClownsMoved corals from Nano, all fish and corals happy and corals opened fully
0.024​
Ammonia >1.0ppm, Nitrite >2ppm, Nitrate >1ppm
30th SepReadings onlyAmmonia dropping on API
0.012​
Ammonia >0.5ppm, Nitrite >2ppm, Nitrate >1ppm
2nd OctReadings onlyDiatoms blooming - very brown rocks and sand
0.008​
Ammonia >0.5ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm
9th Oct2 Ben Cardinals, one Brown Sailfin Tang, more corals added25 L water change
0.001​
Ammonia >0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 0ppm
 

brandon429

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fascinating. one of my top fav threads of all time.

deductions in my opinion that stand out

-accounting for possibly slight machine, testing condition or slide drift, that nano on this seneye is benchmarking very very very well. it remarks well on your machine for showing changes in stasis

its still in the hundredths as before, and as a packed nano that makes sense. low dilution packed nano, that's fair and I believe it now.

your large display and its dilution/rate of decay + total ammonia waste output from animals is simply below detection limits it'll climb on a scale and stop in the hundredths possibly.


** if in a year of stocking that display is still at thousandths and not in hundredths then the statement that all reefs trend to the same nh3 levels will be nullified. Get a years supply of popcorn :)

there will be a new dilution factor added to the rule if your benchmarked system indicates your nh3 is still in thousandths after year of stocking. Fantastic science

it clearly won't be in any toxic state either way, the nano is fine.

take note on slide switch outs how much this current tune trend changes if any, there could likely be small drifts in sampling conditions that occur that occur.



api is now ready per TAN conversion into nh3

close lag end date for api.

actual ready date, day one.
 
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LRT

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Really does change the whole entire game on a different level.
Im glad for this thread.
Your tank tracked out exactly how my recent upgrade with 18-25 yr old live ocean rock tracked out and continues to track out!
But with bottle bac/ dry rock this time. Ive seen similar SPS bottle bac/dry rock tanks stocked almost immediately in the past but never with data supporting it.
So it definitely begs for opinions on is it better to fully stock tank with corals and fish or wait?
I see no reason to wait as long as reef is capable of handling bioload which this one clearly is. I feel like the additions of corals only added to biodiversity here if anything.
 

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Hi @UKReefer67
If and when you get the opportunity would you mind briefly summarizing your journey with this tank in the following thread?
We haven't seen one like this but this tank most definitely fits all criteria for what we are trying to achieve in the instastock thread and the implied uses could be extremely beneficial for folks.

Well done
 
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