Skimmer OR filter roll

Super Fly

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
1,454
Reaction score
1,103
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think I’m sticking with a skimmer & sock set up. I’ve a 70g ready to be put together and thought I’d get peoples thoughts on this before spending a few £££ on either or.
Thanks a lot
just saw this post, yes if it was me I'd wait after setting up and running the tank for several months to determine whether u need a skimmer. Besides, rollermats are not cheap. BTW, some folks like myself don't bother w socks bc they clog too frequently and need cleaning often. Instead I use filter floss
 
OP
OP
R

ReefdudeAdam

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
103
Reaction score
49
Location
Leicester
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My tank is yet to get wet.. I do plan on having a heavily stocked tank so I guess prevention is better than curing an issue? ive always run a skimmer on previous tanks from advice given by LFS.
 

Super Fly

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
1,454
Reaction score
1,103
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
For those interested, here's an article explaining how skimmers work. Skip down to "How do skimmers clean water" & "Surface tension and skimming"
 

Dkmoo

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 30, 2020
Messages
1,590
Reaction score
1,979
Location
Nyc
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Also a further point - skimmer also doesn't DIRECTLY take out the stuff that filter roll does - that's why you don't usually see uneaten mysis shrimp in your skimmate collection cup. However, skimmers EVENTUALLY take them out b/c your bacteria, filter feeders, detrivores and CUC, will eventually process all that leftover stuff that the filter roller will take out, and break them down into smaller components that the skimmer will then take out.

Whether or not a roller is necessary depends on what problem you are trying to solve once you understand what each is trying to take out. For example - not having a roller may actually be helpful if you have a lot of corals b/c you are leaving food floating in the water column longer for the corals to absorb. However this can also mean an explosion of filter feeders (good or bad depends on what kind of filter feeders - ie, feathers vs hydroids). The increase in biomass will also mean more waste in terms of no3/po4, but that will also depend on your "downstream" nutrient export capacity such as skimmer rating + effectiveness of chaeto fuge.
 

Super Fly

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
1,454
Reaction score
1,103
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My tank is yet to get wet.. I do plan on having a heavily stocked tank so I guess prevention is better than curing an issue? ive always run a skimmer on previous tanks from advice given by LFS.
yes and no, bc too clean/low nutrient water will result in Dino. Many folks who at the start of tank kept too clean water ended up battling Dino. Guess if u r planning on heavily stocked then I'd get a skimmer but don't run it yet while tank is young. Test and monitor regularly NO3 & PO4 levels to determine when it's time to start skimming. GL
 
OP
OP
R

ReefdudeAdam

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
103
Reaction score
49
Location
Leicester
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Also a further point - skimmer also doesn't DIRECTLY take out the stuff that filter roll does - that's why you don't usually see uneaten mysis shrimp in your skimmate collection cup. However, skimmers EVENTUALLY take them out b/c your bacteria, filter feeders, detrivores and CUC, will eventually process all that leftover stuff that the filter roller will take out, and break them down into smaller components that the skimmer will then take out.

Whether or not a roller is necessary depends on what problem you are trying to solve once you understand what each is trying to take out. For example - not having a roller may actually be helpful if you have a lot of corals b/c you are leaving food floating in the water column longer for the corals to absorb. However this can also mean an explosion of filter feeders (good or bad depends on what kind of filter feeders - ie, feathers vs hydroids). The increase in biomass will also mean more waste in terms of no3/po4, but that will also depend on your "downstream" nutrient export capacity such as skimmer rating + effectiveness of chaeto fuge.
Just a wealth of knowledge. Thanks so much.
I agree a skimmer will take out most in the end & is probably the best option down the line if/when nutrient export is required.
 

Reeflux

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
83
Reaction score
137
Location
Traverse City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
no such thing as a dumb question. U can absolutely run a tank skimmerless with good tank husbandry, I did on my 60cube but it was very lightly stocked filled with LR directly from the ocean. Track the PO4 levels consistently and when/if u notice it increasing even with regular WC, then u can consider adding a skimmer.
Again, skimmer removes ORGANIC (chemical) waste that comes from food and decomposing waste vs filter sock that removes SOLID waste (mechanical) like any debris/uneaten food etc. Filter sock will not remove PO4 from water column. They serve different purpose and are not the same.

if your pulling out all the solid waste without giving it time to decompose then you aren't leaving nothing for the skimmer? And the fuge will remove po4 no?

I will read further on it.. I have a 150 g tank with an auto filter roll and a large fuge. I didn't even plan on using a skimmer until I felt I needed it.
 
OP
OP
R

ReefdudeAdam

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
103
Reaction score
49
Location
Leicester
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
if your pulling out all the solid waste without giving it time to decompose then you aren't leaving nothing for the skimmer? And the fuge will remove po4 no?

I will read further on it.. I have a 150 g tank with an auto filter roll and a large fuge. I didn't even plan on using a skimmer until I felt I needed it.
Keep me posted on this please! How long have you been set up? Which auto roll are you running?
 

Dkmoo

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 30, 2020
Messages
1,590
Reaction score
1,979
Location
Nyc
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
if your pulling out all the solid waste without giving it time to decompose then you aren't leaving nothing for the skimmer? And the fuge will remove po4 no?

I will read further on it.. I have a 150 g tank with an auto filter roll and a large fuge. I didn't even plan on using a skimmer until I felt I needed it.
at the end of the day - almost every "nutrient" in your water ends up as No3 and po4, whether thru organism absorbing and expelling waste, bacterial conversion, chemical disolution, etc... so, effectively, if you have a good enough fuge, that's all you need - and there have been successful and mature tanks where fuge is the only method of nutrient export. It all just depends if you have enough biodiversity, stability, and patients to let your tank reach equilibriums in terms of how various organisms uptake nutrient in all these different stages (large particles, dissolved organics, proteim/amino chains) before they become No3/po4.
 

sdreef

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
849
Reaction score
3,320
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hi guys..

Had a quick search of the forum and found a few threads mentioning filter rolls and issues running along side skimmers etc..

My question relates to something I saw on BRS TV.. running an auto filter roll instead of a skimmer. I’m limited with space in my sump and had been looking to purchase a skimmer for my new tank any day now.. but should I? Or should I try the filter roll piped to the overflow?
Thanks in advance guys

I run a clarisea SK-5000. My system has had water in it since mid-November. I undersized my skimmer because the automatic roller reduces the amount of organics that have a chance to dissolve into the water as others have mentions. The skimmer functions quite well and removes organics that make it through the mechanical filtration.

1612466041930.png
 

Reeflux

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
83
Reaction score
137
Location
Traverse City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
at the end of the day - almost every "nutrient" in your water ends up as No3 and po4, whether thru organism absorbing and expelling waste, bacterial conversion, chemical disolution, etc... so, effectively, if you have a good enough fuge, that's all you need - and there have been successful and mature tanks where fuge is the only method of nutrient export. It all just depends if you have enough biodiversity, stability, and patients to let your tank reach equilibriums in terms of how various organisms uptake nutrient in all these different stages (large particles, dissolved organics, proteim/amino chains) before they become No3/po4.
You just highlighted the hobby in one paragraph....fantastic!
 

Reeflux

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
83
Reaction score
137
Location
Traverse City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Keep me posted on this please! How long have you been set up? Which auto roll are you running?
Thank adam.....I'm doing the biggest build I've ever done. But this is maybe my 5th tank in my life. Only had them for a few years at a time too. So I got on here to learn, share the build, generate ideas. It's been great.

I'm not up and running yet on this one.

Trigger systems Platinum Sump.. that divider can come out or move to resize the fuge.

This filter roll is nice too because of the float sensors. The one that's with the filter roll is placed for speed of rolling, and there's one in the return too, return water gets too high it can back flow the sump and artificially make the filter roll speed up. So the return float kills the filter rolling on the other side.

I'm sparing no expense here. So I'm going slow. Exposing all the plumbing. Been a fun project... and I've gathered a ton from here already in only a few days time!
 

Attachments

  • 16124676326101646893116883442512.jpg
    16124676326101646893116883442512.jpg
    167.2 KB · Views: 35
  • 16124676836267559357646667223246.jpg
    16124676836267559357646667223246.jpg
    199.8 KB · Views: 34
  • 16124677317564318796624678904958.jpg
    16124677317564318796624678904958.jpg
    122.5 KB · Views: 36
  • 16124677795412236612696455862681.jpg
    16124677795412236612696455862681.jpg
    118.4 KB · Views: 33

Dkmoo

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 30, 2020
Messages
1,590
Reaction score
1,979
Location
Nyc
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You just highlighted the hobby in one paragraph....fantastic!
full disclosure - i currently do NOT have a fuge - yet i have very low NO3/PO4 despite heavy feeding. I had fuge but took it off b/c i started Vibrant treatment for some stubborn bryopsis and i can't restart my fuge b/c algaebarn's sold out.

However, nutrient export is doing fine b/c what's happening here is that any waste that the skimmer doesn't pick up breaks down to no3/po4 that algaes absorb. Then the vibrant bacteria eats the algae and converts that back into organic matters ready for corals/filterfeeders to reabsorb and skimmer to take back out - basically upcycling the no3/po4 back to the earlier stages of nutrient cycle. Because of this i am in no rush to get chaeto back to restart my fuge and i'm doing maintance vibrant doses ever 2 weeks. In case no3/po4 gets out of line, i also have Zeovit coral snow to help - this does the same thing by upcycling no3/po4 into a stage that can be picked up by skimmer, tho the exact process is unknown b/c of zeovits blackbox nature.

keep in mind some no3/p4 is good for corals too b/c the zoox need them - just not too much or it may cause browning.

I still do plan on getting a fuge back eventually - just waiting for some cheap source of chaeto at the moment. nutrient export aside, fuge has added benefit of bio diversity and stability from the micro fauna that an established fuge supports (ie, pods, filter feeders, detrivors, etcc that grow in the chaeto ball)

As you can see there are many ways to effectively control nutrient export - what works for you really just depends on what's in your tank and how you understand this full nutrient cycle process.
 
OP
OP
R

ReefdudeAdam

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
103
Reaction score
49
Location
Leicester
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thank adam.....I'm doing the biggest build I've ever done. But this is maybe my 5th tank in my life. Only had them for a few years at a time too. So I got on here to learn, share the build, generate ideas. It's been great.

I'm not up and running yet on this one.

Trigger systems Platinum Sump.. that divider can come out or move to resize the fuge.

This filter roll is nice too because of the float sensors. The one that's with the filter roll is placed for speed of rolling, and there's one in the return too, return water gets too high it can back flow the sump and artificially make the filter roll speed up. So the return float kills the filter rolling on the other side.

I'm sparing no expense here. So I'm going slow. Exposing all the plumbing. Been a fun project... and I've gathered a ton from here already in only a few days time!
Hey, this looks great!
My tank set up now is a set up to get ready for my in wall build.. this is my first one back in the hobby after 5 years out. Taking it really slow the same as you. I’ll give your build a look!
 

Reeflux

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
83
Reaction score
137
Location
Traverse City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
full disclosure - i currently do NOT have a fuge - yet i have very low NO3/PO4 despite heavy feeding. I had fuge but took it off b/c i started Vibrant treatment for some stubborn bryopsis and i can't restart my fuge b/c algaebarn's sold out.

However, nutrient export is doing fine b/c what's happening here is that any waste that the skimmer doesn't pick up breaks down to no3/po4 that algaes absorb. Then the vibrant bacteria eats the algae and converts that back into organic matters ready for corals/filterfeeders to reabsorb and skimmer to take back out - basically upcycling the no3/po4 back to the earlier stages of nutrient cycle. Because of this i am in no rush to get chaeto back to restart my fuge and i'm doing maintance vibrant doses ever 2 weeks. In case no3/po4 gets out of line, i also have Zeovit coral snow to help - this does the same thing by upcycling no3/po4 into a stage that can be picked up by skimmer, tho the exact process is unknown b/c of zeovits blackbox nature.

keep in mind some no3/p4 is good for corals too b/c the zoox need them - just not too much or it may cause browning.

I still do plan on getting a fuge back eventually - just waiting for some cheap source of chaeto at the moment. nutrient export aside, fuge has added benefit of bio diversity and stability from the micro fauna that an established fuge supports (ie, pods, filter feeders, detrivors, etcc that grow in the chaeto ball)

As you can see there are many ways to effectively control nutrient export - what works for you really just depends on what's in your tank and how you understand this full nutrient cycle process.
The most important part of this chemical story is the fact that you recognize what is happening here. You essentially save yourself from yourself.

I can see a time when something like this is happening in my own tank. I'm getting good Nutrient export, but I may not understand why. In doing so, I may hastily make a decision that takes me out of that momentary equilibrium. Which is what I'm shooting for.

Have to try and think it through.... thanks for the discussion man.
 

((FORDTECH))

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,838
Reaction score
4,270
Location
Chicago
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Which was my initial thoughts, and hadn’t considered a roll until passing by something on BRS and it got me thinking... do I need a skimmer.
I guess you’ve answered my question, although.. if no waste is left over - good tank flow and a fast roll, no food can decay - paired with water changes, the skimmer won’t really have much to do?
Again, sorry if it’s a dumb question.
Yes the skimmer Aerates your water
 

krash7172

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Messages
671
Reaction score
820
Location
Kansas City
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I personally run a roller, skimmer and an algae scrubber. Overkill? Yes. Absolutely. BUUT, they all do different jobs and you can adjust easily with valves and/or timers. You don't have to run any of them 100% :)
 
Back
Top