So my water DOES need nitrates now??

[willthethrill]

So my new 120 setup has been up for about 8 months now. I have a 55g sump with a big enough skimmer, a 40g refugium filled with chaeto, dual reactor with gfo and carbon, I do 20% bi-weekly water changes, and I'm super careful about not overfeeding. I've been keeping up with my levels with BRS two part.

My nitrates and phosphates are always 0. So from what research I've been doing, ppl say that SOME nitrates are good because it's nutrients in the water for the coral and a lot of them like "dirty" water. A handful of coral in my system just isn't doing well. Only opens halfway and some even less. Lighting is good (I played around with different lighting too). Parameters are always where they need to be (I test twice weekly) All this time I've been doing my best to keep my water squeaky clean. Now this wrench gets thrown into it. Ughhhh this hobby sometimes is frustrating.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Tell me about it . Try Kno3 dosing for nitrates. Also try to get a few more fish, and feed more, that helps the phosphates, PO4 isn't hard to raise with basic foods.

 

[Alfrareef]

Sorry but I need to laught because this post reminds me the day I found that reef keeping it's all about balancing and compromising.
I recall that exact some feeling about NO3, PO4 and light...
Try to place more fish and feed dry food (pellets) and you'll see those parameters going up but be careful...

 

[DLHDesign]

I've found that there are all sorts of variations out there on this topic. Here's what I've learned in this regard:
- The ocean's nitrate levels are pretty low - anywhere from 0.1ppm - 2.5ppm (or less, or more).
- Most test kits are only accurate to around 0.5ppm at best.
- Getting nitrates up shouldn't be hard (over-feed the tank or dose it in).
- Raising your nitrates will raise the potential for algae growth.

So, from what I can glean:
Having SOME nitrate is closer to the natural ocean, but getting an accurate read on just how much you have in your closed system, at levels low enough to match the ocean can be tricky to do in the best of cases. And if you can't get an accurate read, your ability to control is difficult (potentially impossible). Which makes aiming for anything >0 nitrates (or >0.5ppm, really...) a bit of a gamble - if you win, you get a tank that's like the ocean; if you loose, you are basically feeding bothersome algae.

Personally, I had 0 nitrates in my tank and then read a bit about dosing it in being a Good Idea. So I mixed up some Spectracide and calculated my dosing level. I was able to hold it between 3-4ppm. A few weeks in, I started to see more algae growth than I ever had before, so I stopped dosing in nitrates. It's entirely possible that the algae entered the system via some other means and just took advantage of the food available to grow. It's also possible I started feeding more as I added more fish and that caused it. Or else something else entirely... Basically; I didn't have good luck with elevating my nitrates, but I was also pretty far from having a controlled environment in which to test the change.

 

[bif24701]

Here's the deal. You don't necessarily need detectable nitrates/phosphates. As long as you meet the nutrient needs of your corals. Some find that a small amount <2ppm nitrates and </= .02ppm phosphate help meet those needs. Others like myself have no detectable nitrates however I feed my corals both directly and indirectly. Amino acids and corals food/supplements can help you meet those needs. Corals still need to feed just like fish and if they are not getting what they need they will suffer.

Try feeding more, or adding more fish. That can help also.

You have a new system and sometimes keeping nutrients low in a new system is difficult. You have done well and now your system is removing the nutrients efficiently. This is now a good time to start feeding corals things like amino acids. This will feed the corals without creating a lot of waste. Adding coral foods to a system that either already has higher nutrients or can not handle them creates problems. You have reached the point now where you can control the "load" and need to add a little more. GFO and carbon can be reduced, maybe remove some cheato.

Your little box is dynamic and constant monitoring, adjusting and learning what your system needs changes. Try not to follow steadfast number or rules. Find a balance where your corals respond. Slowly adjust and follow your corals with their changes. Part (most) of a system maturing is YOU learning what the needs are and how to meet the needs.

 

[Rick.45cal]

I've found that there are all sorts of variations out there on this topic. Here's what I've learned in this regard:
- The ocean's nitrate levels are pretty low - anywhere from 0.1ppm - 2.5ppm (or less, or more).
- Most test kits are only accurate to around 0.5ppm at best.
- Getting nitrates up shouldn't be hard (over-feed the tank or dose it in).
- Raising your nitrates will raise the potential for algae growth.

So, from what I can glean:
Having SOME nitrate is closer to the natural ocean, but getting an accurate read on just how much you have in your closed system, at levels low enough to match the ocean can be tricky to do in the best of cases. And if you can't get an accurate read, your ability to control is difficult (potentially impossible). Which makes aiming for anything >0 nitrates (or >0.5ppm, really...) a bit of a gamble - if you win, you get a tank that's like the ocean; if you loose, you are basically feeding bothersome algae.

Personally, I had 0 nitrates in my tank and then read a bit about dosing it in being a Good Idea. So I mixed up some Spectracide and calculated my dosing level. I was able to hold it between 3-4ppm. A few weeks in, I started to see more algae growth than I ever had before, so I stopped dosing in nitrates. It's entirely possible that the algae entered the system via some other means and just took advantage of the food available to grow. It's also possible I started feeding more as I added more fish and that caused it. Or else something else entirely... Basically; I didn't have good luck with elevating my nitrates, but I was also pretty far from having a controlled environment in which to test the change.

The algae you experienced was likely always there. Adding the nitrates just gave them some fuel to finally make their presence known. Nothing wrong with your experience what so ever, Adding the nitrates in a system that has been devoid of them causes the balances in microfauna to shift, and effectively changing what types and amounts of organisms that the ecosystem can support. You probably have a clean up crew very well suited to a low nutrient environment, but they are probably sorely outmatched in an environment with nutrients available. A bigger more diverse clean up crew would have nipped that in the bud pretty quick.

My tank went through the same thing when I started dosing KNO3, suddenly everything (including the corals) figured out that they could grow. I significantly increased my clean up crew and now the tank has polished up pretty nicely. (We're a young system and not without our own issues too.) Right now I'm still getting great coral growth on all my frags so I am pleased. Way more than when I was running 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've found that there are all sorts of variations out there on this topic. Here's what I've learned in this regard:
- The ocean's nitrate levels are pretty low - anywhere from 0.1ppm - 2.5ppm (or less, or more).
-

As I understand it from the chemical oceanography literature, the ocean is typically well below 0.1 ppm nitrate in tropical ocean surface water unless there is local upwelling of deep ocean water.

We are not trying to mimic that very low level because our tanks lack the organic foods (bacteria, etc.) that contain N that corals consume. :)

This paper has lots of details for Atlantic nitrate levels:
http://ocean.mit.edu/~mick/Papers/HansellFollows-NitrogenBook-2008.pdf

see Figure 13.6, for example, where the surface water is below 0.1 umol/kg, which is about 0.006 ppm.

 

[DLHDesign]

The algae you experienced was likely always there.

Absolutely - yeah; I'm sure. ::shakes fist at algae (while also appreciating it's contribution to the ecosystem)::

I significantly increased my clean up crew and now the tank has polished up pretty nicely.

You know; when I started this tank, I figured I'd have a lot to learn about corals and fish. I never imagined I would have to spend more time on algae and invertebrates... :-)

As I understand it...

Which I'm TOTALLY sure is a far better understanding than I have. ;-)

 

[bif24701]

I think there is an important detail you need to keep in mind. Though the nitrate concentration in NSW around a reef is very low because of its volume there is plenty available. In our tiny boxes it possible to run into problems with such low concentrations because the total amount is much lower. These micro nutrients may be completely consumed quickly while in the reef there is plenty all around all the time

 

[DLHDesign]

Though the nitrate concentration in NSW around a reef is very low because of its volume there is plenty available.

Your statement is more about consumption and replenishment rates; not available quantity. Assuming you could measure low enough and dose a fine enough level, you could (conceptually) maintain NSW levels in a reef tank. I don't think the problem is keeping a stable level (I was able to get to that myself with minor effort); the problem is that NSW levels (and thus the levels some aquarists are after) are lower than we can accurately measure.

 

[bif24701]

Your statement is more about consumption and replenishment rates; not available quantity. Assuming you could measure low enough and dose a fine enough level, you could (conceptually) maintain NSW levels in a reef tank. I don't think the problem is keeping a stable level (I was able to get to that myself with minor effort); the problem is that NSW levels (and thus the levels some aquarists are after) are lower than we can accurately measure.

Actually that's is exactly what it is about. NSW still has much much more available nitrate even thought the concentration is low.

 

[DLHDesign]

I don't think I'm understanding your choice of words, but it sounds like we're in agreement, so yay for that! :-)

"available nitrate" and "concentration" mean the same thing to me in this context, but I don't think they do to you. I can see how the former could be interpreted more globally, while the latter is more local, perhaps? Eg; "The ocean has billions of ppm of nitrate available, but at the average surface layer in any given spot, it's only 0.006ppm" (gross over-simplification of the wonderful data that @Randy Holmes-Farley provided; I'm going for linguistic clarification here and not numerical nor conceptual accuracy). That what you mean?

 

[kyleflahardy]

This is funny Most people battle with lowering their nitrates. You have the opposite problem. As for advice I can tell you how to lower them but not raise the.

 

[Rick.45cal]

I don't think I'm understanding your choice of words, but it sounds like we're in agreement, so yay for that! :)

"available nitrate" and "concentration" mean the same thing to me in this context, but I don't think they do to you. I can see how the former could be interpreted more globally, while the latter is more local, perhaps? Eg; "The ocean has billions of ppm of nitrate available, but at the average surface layer in any given spot, it's only 0.006ppm" (gross over-simplification of the wonderful data that @Randy Holmes-Farley provided; I'm going for linguistic clarification here and not numerical nor conceptual accuracy). That what you mean?

I think he's simply stating even though the ocean has a barely detectable quantity of Nitrate available in ppm, the corals have access to a much larger volume of water, so the chances of that small portion of Nitrate being depleted for a long period of time is highly improbable. In a tiny glass box with only .05ppm nitrate, when it's gone... it's gone. Even though the concentration is much higher, the actual quanitity (in mass) is limited by the volume of water.

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

I've been successful (or lucky) at controlling nitrates by controlling the lighting in the refugium. At one point, I was running the fug lighting about 18 hours a day. Loads of algae in the fug but no nitrates left for the DT. Then I just increased the cleanup crew in the fug. VERY unscientific but it seems to work for me.

 

[bif24701]

I think he's simply stating even though the ocean has a barely detectable quantity of Nitrate available in ppm, the corals have access to a much larger volume of water, so the chances of that small portion of Nitrate being depleted for a long period of time is highly improbable. In a tiny glass box with only .05ppm nitrate, when it's gone... it's gone. Even though the concentration is much higher, the actual quanitity (in mass) is limited by the volume of water.

Thank you

 

[bif24701]

I don't think I'm understanding your choice of words, but it sounds like we're in agreement, so yay for that! :-)

"available nitrate" and "concentration" mean the same thing to me in this context, but I don't think they do to you. I can see how the former could be interpreted more globally, while the latter is more local, perhaps? Eg; "The ocean has billions of ppm of nitrate available, but at the average surface layer in any given spot, it's only 0.006ppm" (gross over-simplification of the wonderful data that @Randy Holmes-Farley provided; I'm going for linguistic clarification here and not numerical nor conceptual accuracy). That what you mean?

Well don't disagree with you.

 

[bif24701]

Our little boxes can and will easily run out of available nitrates in a ULNS, that's why the successful ones dose back the foods/AAs/nutrients the corals need. NSW reef doesn't have that problem, there is an nearly endless supply. However there are recent studies showing bleaching in coral reefs is worse where phosphates are lowest. Go figure

 

[Newb73]

Its an excuse to max stock your tank and feed plenty
..... which i do but run a nitrate reactor also.


I keep red sea reef energy set avail for times when they are undectable..which is almost never.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/red-s...dqNgyk6hRYfF6RVzCh25YRdVhkCZF8mDCyxoCNRLw_wcB

 

[Vaughn17]

Our little boxes can and will easily run out of available nitrates in a ULNS, that's why the successful ones dose back the foods/AAs/nutrients the corals need. NSW reef doesn't have that problem, there is an nearly endless supply. However there are recent studies showing bleaching in coral reefs is worse where phosphates are lowest. Go figure

IME, well fed sps are much hardier than starved ones. I've been experimenting with dosing NO3 and PO4 in a 38g skimmerless sps dominant tank. IMO, PO4 seems to be the (growth) limiting nutrient. My goal is the Redfield Ratio or thereabouts, so I try to keep NO3 between 2 to 5 ppm (dosing NaNO3) and PO4 between .1 to .2 ppm (dosing Seachem's KPO4 or feeding reef roids, roe, etc.). I've noticed that the corals seem to prefer the liquid PO4, and that if I add a few drops at night I also need to increase the amount of Alk supplement (i.e. carbonate, bicarbonate, etc.) that I dose. Of course, too much PO4 inhibits growth, although how much is too much appears to be species specific...at .5 PO4 purple stylo grew like crazy, as did a red planet colony, but other acros didn't seem to be growing much. And yes, the tank struggles with algae but not as much as you'd think. I recently added two tuxedo urchins, which is helping a lot (when they get through with a patch, the rock looks like dry rock from the box, lol). Still, would love to have a tank big enough for a foxface.