So... where is the imbalance?

[Dom]

Based on articles and posts I've read, Cyanobacteria thrives for a few reasons. But the common denominator that comes up in almost every article I've read is an imbalance in the tank where Cyanobacteria outcompetes for the nutrients available in the tank.

Both NO3 and PO4 have been at undetectable levels in my tank for many months. During this time, Cyano has thrived. In an effort to raise nutrients, I've shut down my skimmer and removed all Chaetomorpha from the refugium. But still, no rise in nutrients.

Am I right in concluding that the Cyanobacteria is consuming the nutrients?

What competes with Cyano for the tank nutrients. What do I need to add?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

 

[Dom]

Informative video. But it doesn't answer my question.

 

[P-Dub]

By implementing nutrient reduction processes in order to raise nutrients you have, essentially, removed all the competition for the Cyano allowing it to thrive. You are correct that the Cyano is outcompeting your other nutrient export methods, while you had them. This is often why there is low to zero nutrients detected in our systems. The idea is to control nutrient production, increase the methods of nutrient export, and at the same time eliminating the cyano via mechanical means. It is very much a multi-pronged approach. I find it to be a balancing act.

 

[Dom]

By implementing nutrient reduction processes in order to raise nutrients you have, essentially, removed all the competition for the Cyano allowing it to thrive. You are correct that the Cyano is outcompeting your other nutrient export methods, while you had them. This is often why there is low to zero nutrients detected in our systems. The idea is to control nutrient production, increase the methods of nutrient export, and at the same time eliminating the cyano via mechanical means. It is very much a multi-pronged approach. I find it to be a balancing act.

<click> ---- Ok, so it isn't a microbiology issue, like where the presence of ammonia would indicate an undersized or non-existent nitrifying bacteria colony.

I'm exporting nutrients through skimming, the growth of Chaetomorpha in my refugium and water changes.

Of my tanks, the one with the chronic Cyanobacteria problem has a total water volume of 40 gallons between the display and sump. I complete a weekly water change of 5 gallons, which is 12.5%. Perhaps a larger water change will help?

Thoughts?

 

[brandon429]

We cure cyano in the sand rinse thread for pages by simply identifying where in the rocks or sand you’d have a waste cloud, we clean it, then cyano stops about 99% of the time

Reach in sandbed (if any) and grab sand and drop, if that would release a cloud there’s the cause and cure identified and we never asked for nutrient readings the whole time. If no sand, and you can reach in and grab a rock, twist it mid water and castings and cloud come off, same

I’ve never once in thirty pages seen a cyano challenge where sand and rock are cloud free and can prove it on video. Cloud is associated with cyano, somehow. We stop dosers like vibrant or gfo, direct causes of cyano, so that external causes aren’t being added during assessment

Post a full tank shot let’s see where clouding exists if any

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Try increasing flow, reduce light intensity, reduce temperature, & cease dosing trace elements, particularly iron.
Also try a different food.

 

[brandon429]

I would also state the number one thing missing from cyano articles is the writer showing up in today's cyano work threads and fixing them live time. That's pretty much the only section of the bibliography that matters...even cherry-picked compliant work examples are missing usually, but live-time present-day work in cyano help threads by cyano authors-never seen it once in reefing.

The people making articles and the people finding fixes are different people, authors reflect on what they did in their homes under their own variable arrangement.



Remember in 90s we cured cyano by changing out old VHO bulbs and the cause was old bulb spectrum shift? Written laws on cyano cause effect change every two decades. Actual before and after cure threads distill cause and effect in a timeless manner, they're unsafe zones, its why I said only 99% above / in case frogger was watching (worlds hardiest cyano strain, cannot be cured by mankind)

 

[ReefGeezer]

What competes with Cyano for the tank nutrients. What do I need to add?

Cyano can compete where conditions are right for it regardless of competition. The presence of high organic levels, either in the water of in/on the substrate, particularly where flow is low, gives it all it needs to grow. Inorganic N&P levels aren't necessary because the Cyano can get what it needs directly from the organic material. Adding isn't the answer. Mechanical removal, vacuuming sand beds, blowing detritus and waste off the rocks, adding GAC, and doing water changes will help. It will pass. Your job is just to keep it from becoming a big issue until it does.

 

[Dom]

We cure cyano in the sand rinse thread for pages by simply identifying where in the rocks or sand you’d have a waste cloud, we clean it, then cyano stops about 99% of the time

Reach in sandbed (if any) and grab sand and drop, if that would release a cloud there’s the cause and cure identified and we never asked for nutrient readings the whole time. If no sand, and you can reach in and grab a rock, twist it mid water and castings and cloud come off, same

I’ve never once in thirty pages seen a cyano challenge where sand and rock are cloud free and can prove it on video. Cloud is associated with cyano, somehow. We stop dosers like vibrant or gfo, direct causes of cyano, so that external causes aren’t being added during assessment

Post a full tank shot let’s see where clouding exists if any

I would describe my substrate as sparse. Some areas of the tank are actually bare bottom.

But your suggestion has me thinking; what’s different in this tank than the others? The answer is that this tank doesn’t have power heads pointing at the rock scape, where the others do.

So I will install power heads pointed at the rock after shaking it out. Perhaps there are some dead spots you speak of.

 

[brandon429]

I would also add that we do a full water change, clean the rocks externally, then assemble an uninvaded system and aim the powerheads, no skipping the work portion. We wouldn't make the change with the other major portions intact...including the whole water column. We've learned that whole tank measures vs invader- specific measures are why we don't have trouble earning invasion free after pics as long as it's not froggers tank

(Most refuse. The true rip clean is only for the resolved aspect of being invaded. The tinkering aspect means invasion isn't bad enough to stop trying partial measures and avoid the work)

There are partial ways to battle cyano, and then there is rip cleaning to force the compliant condition.

Whether or not rip cleaning / complete cleaning and water change is harmful isn't up for debate, we have too many years of work collected to negate. It all comes down to resolve, and if we are tinkering stage or I'm done with this stage. All the people who move reef tanks able to house twelve thousand dollar anemones into macna have not moved waste, and have not set up cyano tanks let the record show. Pre cleaning a tank vs storing it up forever, and ever, has already been done at every convention done worldwide. Uncommon hints and clues to being uninvaded

When invaded, clean your tank like it has to go to macna and be scrutinized by thousands up close. Then do X arrangement change as preventative only, not as remover.

 

[Dom]

There are partial ways to battle cyano, and then there is rip cleaning to force the compliant condition.

I wish I could figure out how this tank became infected.

I haven't any objection to a complete rip down and rebuild. In fact, I have an empty tank that I can start with and rebuild the old tank into the new. But I worry about infecting the new build as so much from the infected build is moving over to the new one.

Can you point me to a link that goes into details on this?

 

[brandon429]

here is Jon's disassembly cleaning, best one ive seen in a long while. on a large tank too, 120+ gallons but he didnt skip any corners its a perfect rebuild.

its true there's a small chance the new system can get it, some strains are really harsh * but there's simply no harm in the work as noted, it will not harm any corals or fish if the order of ops and separation holding occurs-- and in the end you simply have a high percentage chance of it working. If not, and some red shows right back up on rocks, then you're out the work spent on the rip clean but you'll have a clean, clear, bright system with perfect params/none suspect to start X new approach from. Its the best chances I can come up with...Jon's was more preemptive, not in invasion state but he had the substrate to fuel one should a hitchhiker show up

**powerful UV sterilizers for ponds/1500 gal ratings are about 150$ from amazon and have probably an equal chance of killing off cyano if its cleaned first, before install.

A rip clean + one of those uv's / oversized one they're not actually that big is a real 1+2 punch for mean dinos and cyano in my opinion

120 gallon rip clean

I’ve decided to perform a rip clean on my 120 with 100% new water. The tank has been running for 5 years and was battling Dino for several months. I used the bacteria method from elegant corals and worked great I haven’t seen Dino in months now. But I tried several other methods including...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[P-Dub]

It is my personal opinion based on anecdotal evidence only but, I just went bare bottom years and years ago. Never have I, personally, had a cyano outbreak since. Heavy flow, nano-micro bubble scrubbing and regular, once every couple of months, removal of detritus in dead spots.

 

[Dan_P]

It is my personal opinion based on anecdotal evidence only but, I just went bare bottom years and years ago. Never have I, personally, had a cyano outbreak since. Heavy flow, nano-micro bubble scrubbing and regular, once every couple of months, removal of detritus in dead spots.

What we need now is for a bunch of new systems started with a bare bottom and see whether none grow cyanobacteria for a couple of years.

 

[LC8Sumi]

I have cyano growing on my powerheads.. Checkmate flow specialists!

 

[brandon429]

inside the nozzle or outside it

 

[Dom]

It is my personal opinion based on anecdotal evidence only but, I just went bare bottom years and years ago. Never have I, personally, had a cyano outbreak since. Heavy flow, nano-micro bubble scrubbing and regular, once every couple of months, removal of detritus in dead spots.

I went bare bottom for several months and the Cyano growth stopped. Then I added substrate back and it started up again.

I'll siphon it out over the next several weeks. Eventually when the rebuild is complete I'll use a crushed coral substrate. It's heavier and will allow for greater flow without disruption.

 

[Frogger]

Read Brandon429's blogs on Cyano, knowledge is a good thing. The one thing I have come to realize in this hobby is everyone's tanks are different. So the reason why we get a Cyano bloom is usually different and one cure does not work for all.

I have not been able to completely control my cyano I only manage it. There are many tools in the shed.

 

[LC8Sumi]

inside the nozzle or outside it

Outside. There is like 3000lph of flow just right there..

So my take is that not flow is the fix

I’ve basted it off yesterday, but here you can still see some: