SPS Stuff I Find Interesting & I hope You Do Too

Rick5

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I have written about this before in passing, and I don’t know that it makes sense to recount the exact details here, but I certainly will later if it’s helpful to anyone. The short of it is that I’ve dealt with dinoflagellates. Apparently, lightening can strike twice in the same spot (literally, I think). I encountered dinoflagellates a second time. I won’t bore you with the details of both bouts again because I’ve done that before. However, I have also talked about what I believe to be the virtues of live rock (and more specifically, the perceived benefit of live rock in the context of dinoflagellate prevention). In short, I think dry rock can contribute to dinoflagellates, and I also think dry rock may be more aggressive than live rock such that nutrients can be driven down artificially low (more quickly) with dry rock than its live rock counterpart. I have probably articulated this better elsewhere once, maybe.

I am running a Red Sea Reefer 250. Lighting is provided by 2 x AI Hydra 26HDs. I have four T5s available that I am not presently utilizing. Flow is seemingly ample in that I have two Tunzes (and although I forget the model, the non-controllable pumps put out an estimated 3k+ gph each), alongside an MP40. One Tunze pump is off, and I’ll likely remove it. The MP40 is turned down significantly. I run a Bubble King 160 Mini. I recently went from a refugium only system back to my skimmer. Comically, I wanted to sell the skimmer but thought I’d go back to my protein skimming roots and decided to use it partially because several/many people were interested but relatively few actually pulled the trigger, so to speak. I replaced the dry rock earlier with 35lbs. of KP Aquatics live rock.

Temperature’s rock solid via a Ranco controller. I have a ground probe in place. I am running chaeto in a refugium. I have an auto top off unit (Tunzo Osmolator). I use RO/DI with zero TDS and pre-filters that are relatively new (and rejection rate still looks good). Salt is Tropic Marin. Lighting schedule’s interesting in that I’m using a lot more green and red than most. I’ll post more on this later.

Parameters are as follows: Alk 7.5, Nitrate 2.5 and Phosphate .021 (according to Salifert, Salifert and Hanna Checker, respectively). I’m semi-pleased with the alkalinity, but I would prefer it to be a bit lower. Nitrate’s okay, but I’d prefer it to be a bit higher. Phosphate is not perfect given the dinoflagellates pre-live rock addition (although there’s a known margin of error with the little green egg that can go in either direction). My only saving grace in that regard (depending on your view of nutrient levels) is that my throughput is great.

The tank has stabilized since the second dino-bout and live rock inclusion. I’ve performed a 50%+ water change about a week ago. The tank has some frags that miraculously survived the last round of dinoflagellates (although they are dormant). After a month or two or three of stability, I placed an order with @Coral Euphoria for the following:

RR Pink Floyd
RMF Psychoberry
CC Voodoo Majick
ASD Rainbow Millepora
RR Pink Cadillac
GC Ultimate Efflo
RMF Red Devil Nasuta
FF Red Robin
ORA Oregon Tortuosa
Vivid Rainbow Delight
ORA California Tortuosa
BC Rainbows in Spain
ORA Hawkins
ORA Joe the Coral
WWC Heartbreaker
Strwaberry Shortcake

Abe did a bang-up job in terms of quality of frags, size of frags and the like.

I’m posting this thread, I think, for accountability purposes and hopefully to share items of information that may be helpful to others. I’m well-read on the subject of tank husbandry and sps-keeping in that I’ve read Fenner, Calfo, Borneman, others and their (and others) published and online disseminated works, as well as followed reefing forums closely, but the potential for missing something obvious or maybe not so obvious is real. Similarly, maybe folks will stop buying up dry rock and take a stab at live rock and, hopefully, circumvent some of the issues I’ve experienced (which I didn’t encounter previously while utilizing live rock in other tanks).

The concern regarding live rock pests (promulgated by vendors of dry rock, among others) is exaggerated, in my opinion.

If all goes well, I potentially hope to acquire some of the older Atlantis and Tyree pieces, as well as some Wet Thumbs and Rocky Mountain Frags Pieces. In that event, I’ll probably beg and bribe @jda to let me tap into his collection.
 
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Rubblereefer

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I’m far from an SPS pro, but I’ve always used live rock and have never experienced all the start up issues of dry rock, and also never had any really bad pest issues.
 

X-37B

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Interesting post.
I run similar levels.
Alk lowered from 8.5 about 3 months ago.
Tanks almost 1 year old.
Alk 7-7.3
Po4 .02 almost never higher.
N03 <2.
50/50 live rock and caribsea dry.
Dinos were short lived around 4 weeks.
Coralline growth has been heavy and imo helps keep dinos at bay.
Bare bottom help too.
Dont have alot of the higher end corals as none are local.
The only other thing I do different is I run a no scheduled water change system.
Carx for alk and ca and dosing trace for the rest.
Good skimmer, in tank flow, filter sock amd a balanced fish, invert, cleanup crew.
 
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Rick5

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I’m far from an SPS pro, but I’ve always used live rock and have never experienced all the start up issues of dry rock, and also never had any really bad pest issues.

I really don't recall experiencing start up issues either when I used live rock in the past. Maybe cyanobacteria here and there, but good husbandry always took care of that.
 
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Rick5

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Coralline growth has been heavy and imo helps keep dinos at bay.

I think you're on to something with this. I think coraline encrusted live rock is also less likely to suffer from algae outbreaks. At least that has been my experience. I've also never really been able to grow coraline (well) in a dry rock based system, whereas with live rock, coraline readily grows and spreads, often to nuisance proportions.
 

X-37B

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I think you're on to something with this. I think coraline encrusted live rock is also less likely to suffer from algae outbreaks. At least that has been my experience. I've also never really been able to grow coraline (well) in a dry rock based system, whereas with live rock, coraline readily grows and spreads, often to nuisance proportions.
When I got ugly algae it was only on the caribsea
dry rock for about 5 weeks before vibrant got rid of it.
 
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Rick5

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Quick update. Things have definitely improved since removing the dry rock and replacing it with the live rock I obtained from KP Aquatics. From a causation/correlation perspective, I made a couple of other changes (by putting a skimmer on the tank and cleaning out the refugium) so I cannot draw a perfect conclusion but I will say that the tank wasn't doing well previously when I had the skimmer running, no refugium and dry rock, if that makes sense.

Given the availability of rock from KP Aquatics and a few other sources (which I haven't tried so I cannot really speak to the other sources), live rock is worth a shot if you're having issues with dinoflagellates or unknown losses or instability despite good husbandry.

Notably, what's almost freakish is that virtually all of the original frags that survived the dinoflagellates have turned around in subtle but dramatic ways. I don't have a camera that can pick up the details/improvements, unfortunately. The frags I got from Abe (after the tank stabilized) continue to look great. You can tell how beaten down I've been by the dinoflagellates because I think it's "freakish" that my frags are starting to do what they're meant to do once again. I haven't experienced that in many years. Fingers crossed.

I am waiting for alkalinity to dip slightly to turn my two part doser back on. In the meantime, I am feeding two frozen cubes and three to four generous servings of Formula One each day.
 

Daniel@R2R

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Cool. Following
 

blasterman

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I recall BRS doing some tank tests and finding new bare bottom tanks had the annoying bacteria blooms but the tank with substrate didn't. Goes to show you that good bacteria need LR or substrate.

Just remember LR needs to come from a tank with a bioload or it's not much better than dry. Smart reef shops keep old damsels or other non desired fish in their LR quarries to keep the bio filter going. Established LR from mature tanks with healthy bioload and circulation is worth its weight in gold if you ask me. So fewer problems.
 
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Rick5

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I appreciate the interest/follow, folks. The dinoflagellates fiasco is unpleasant, but let's see what the switch to live rock has in store for this tank long term.

My parameters as shown in my first post above were: Alk 7.5, Nitrate 2.5 and Phosphate .021. Today's testing revealed the following: Alk 7.3, Nitrate (slightly less than 5) and Phosphate .031. That's a drop in alkalinity by .2 and a well-received increase in both nitrate (by slightly less than 2.5) and phosphate (by .010). The change occurred over the course of approximately five days.

As soon as alkalinity reaches 7, I will turn on the 2-part dosers. The only reason I'm allowing the alkalinity to drop is because I want to keep it at around 7. Nevertheless, the drop is and will continue to be gradual.

In the meantime, the parameters above and improvement in the fledgling frags that survived the second dinoflagellates outbreak (following the switch to live rock) begs the question - which school of thought is most appropriate for this particular tank given the history I outlined above? If I draw on my recent experience with dinoflagellates and dry rock, as well as that of many others, I am inclined to increase nitrate and phosphate further, in large part, to avoid another wave of dinoflagellates, as well as to continue to color up the frags. Conversely, if I were to view this tank as a live rock based tank and apply the old school majority SPS keeping methodology that was prevalent years ago and which I was previously successful with, I would instead likely conclude that I ought to maintain the nutrients at the current levels and ensure that nutrients remain relatively stable (while also maintaining good throughput). It's a tough call because my current nutrient levels plus live rock would have been fine (from my vantage) 5 or 10 years ago. However, given my experience with dry rock, dinoflagellates (and the fact that this tank was previously a dry rock based tank), I am inclined to second guess things.

I think I'll likely go with the first option while watching the frags and tank closely. Thoughts?
 

csb123

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If things are going well, don’t change a thing. Just be vigilant over the coming months. I let a little hair algae get to be a bit of a problem, but it was easy to clear up.
 

Dlealrious

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Ive never only ever used dry rock and never experienced this issue i see here alot. People try and keep there water super clean. I only run a cheato for nutrient export. Skimmers gfo bio balls these seem to be causes of alot of ppl problems. Just what i see anyway from reading stuff
 

MrsBugmaster

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Do you think it would help by just adding some live rock to my 180 gal tank instead of replacing all of it?
 

ajm83

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I've used live rock and got bryopsis, dinos, vermetids and eunice worms. I think it's just luck of the draw personally.

edit: forgot I also got grape caulerpa and valonia from that same rock!
 
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Rick5

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Do you think it would help by just adding some live rock to my 180 gal tank instead of replacing all of it?

What are you trying to accomplish and what issues have you encountered, if any? If things are working for you, I'd leave it alone (although it certainly won't hurt to add live rock, as long as you're taking account of cycling/curing-related issues).
 
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Rick5

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I've used live rock and got bryopsis, dinos, vermetids and eunice worms. I think it's just luck of the draw personally.

edit: forgot I also got grape caulerpa and valonia from that same rock!

Wow. Where did you source the rock from?
 

Epic Aquaculture

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Just to play devils advocate here, while I do agree that real live rock is best if it has no pests, in the long run dry rock works just as well. You simply have to be more patient, and the key is to add biodiversity to the rock so it becomes live. I started all of my current systems with dry rock, but I added a great deal of biodiversity using products from DR Tims, Brightwell, and most importantly the South Pacific Ocean via Indo-Pacific Sea Farms., but a picture says a thousand words:
Low Tide.png
 
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