Stay away from prazi pro

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Wildreefs

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I think it's totally fine for you to hate it and never use it again. But it's also totally fine for the rest of us having success with it and keep using it. We all believe in our previous experience, they're all true even though they different.

A conversation like this won't push our husbandry much. What will really help is to find out what exactly cause the death. Is it oxygen depletion? Bacteria bloom? Did it trigger some sort of bacteria infection? Is it some actually toxicity in the medication? Is the tank got a tight cover without lots of surface agitation, and have been running in relatively low oxygen level and prazipro just pushed it over the edge? Why it works for many but don't work for you is the most important question. I always run a hob filter and have water level a bit lower, and run an air pump when running prazipro, yet still worry about oxygen depletion. Luckily it never happened.

Also API general care is a safer alternative. It has the same active ingredient for deworming. But it didn't have the secondary ingredient of prazipro, which trigger bacteria bloom.
Not looking to turn a trend or be some one who pretends to have all the answers.

this has happened to me recently more and more often, and when I reached out to some quarantine folks, they stated the same thing.

I was qting a gem tang, powder blue, and various wrasses a few months ago. A week of no meds, all was fine. Prazi pro and within a day , one by one fish went down.

to answer some of your points, not sure if it triggered a bacterial infection. Dosed at 10 pm, handful of the fish were dead at 5 am, 7 hours later, showing I mine to troubling signs with Jim an hour or dose.

All 20 gallon tanks I have connected do not have kids, not even screen tops. Running about 500 gph, which crashes down 4 inches from drain into sump. In there is a reef octopus skimmer rated for 250 gallons, with lid off running. In each tank is an airline tied to a piece of PVC, with bubbles breaking the surface. Each tank has a return line, aimed down at the surface creating a ripple.

agajn, if it were just me, I’d say I need to look harder. But when two vendors on here tell me they won’t use the stuff anymore, and another two quarantine vendors tell me they use panache, general cure instead for same reason, I think it’s fair to have that info out as well, this way people like me don’t see others in the past double dosing it because it’s so gentle and easy to use. I had a feeling the second I dosed it last night, things would only get ugly by the morning, and when I woke up and looked, I hated being right.
No bloom , yet, but will put uV light back on to prevent that.
 
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Ok 10 yrs ago ppl pushed and talked and preached all about qt and having qt tanks. Nobody had them though. Lol!
It was a great common practice that was more talked about than actually used.
Fast forward 10yrs to now and everyone is qt to 100%. They literally get a new fish and treat instanly with copper or this prazi pro.

The medicine is only needed if its needed.
You are stressing the fish out by putting it in a sterile enviroment on top of the moving from tank to tank. Stress fish will not eat. Getting a fish to eat should be #1

If the specimen looks and appears to be healthy. Qt and observe or temp acclimate and add to the display.
 

hds4216

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Ok 10 yrs ago ppl pushed and talked and preached all about qt and having qt tanks. Nobody had them though. Lol!
It was a great common practice that was more talked about than actually used.
Fast forward 10yrs to now and everyone is qt to 100%. They literally get a new fish and treat instanly with copper or this prazi pro.

The medicine is only needed if its needed.
You are stressing the fish out by putting it in a sterile enviroment on top of the moving from tank to tank. Stress fish will not eat. Getting a fish to eat should be #1

If the specimen looks and appears to be healthy. Qt and observe or temp acclimate and add to the display.
Observational quarantine is never a 100% sure thing though.
 
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I had multiple 20 gallon tanks (high and long) that I ran individually for qt. Each with their own hang on back filter.

after qt, I would bleach the em doen and restart with biospira. Well to restart 6 tanks, with biospira, was about $100 just in biospirA. Plus every time I measured copper I had to do 6 test, way too time consuming.

I went out and got a diamond bit, some bulk heads, and a few more 20s, and plumbed them all together in 1 sump with bio media and a skimmer, 1 300 watt heater instead of multiple 75 watts. And I just leave system running, with copper and water changes . This way I’m not wasting money on biospira , and less filters running, plus only test copper once for system instead of individually.
Well, I thought I was fancy having a 40 gallon fish QT with egg crate dividers and a 10 gallon petco special version for coral QT! Anyway, sorry about your issues with Prazipro. Personally, I've never had an issue and I even had to use it in my 300G display a couple times over the years. Different tanks, different experiences I guess but I'm sure that I'll be extra nervous next time I think about dosing it.
 

threebuoys

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Not looking to turn a trend or be some one who pretends to have all the answers.

this has happened to me recently more and more often, and when I reached out to some quarantine folks, they stated the same thing.

I was qting a gem tang, powder blue, and various wrasses a few months ago. A week of no meds, all was fine. Prazi pro and within a day , one by one fish went down.

to answer some of your points, not sure if it triggered a bacterial infection. Dosed at 10 pm, handful of the fish were dead at 5 am, 7 hours later, showing I mine to troubling signs with Jim an hour or dose.

All 20 gallon tanks I have connected do not have kids, not even screen tops. Running about 500 gph, which crashes down 4 inches from drain into sump. In there is a reef octopus skimmer rated for 250 gallons, with lid off running. In each tank is an airline tied to a piece of PVC, with bubbles breaking the surface. Each tank has a return line, aimed down at the surface creating a ripple.

agajn, if it were just me, I’d say I need to look harder. But when two vendors on here tell me they won’t use the stuff anymore, and another two quarantine vendors tell me they use panache, general cure instead for same reason, I think it’s fair to have that info out as well, this way people like me don’t see others in the past double dosing it because it’s so gentle and easy to use. I had a feeling the second I dosed it last night, things would only get ugly by the morning, and when I woke up and looked, I hated being right.
No bloom , yet, but will put uV light back on to prevent that.
Your QT system is impressive. Clearly you pay attention to details and appreciate the goal of QT.

I also appreciate your attitude towards a product that in one way or another is linked to the death of your fish. I once added a commercial product to a freshwater aquarium, following the mfg instructions to a T, and lost several fish within an hour. I've sworn off on that product too.

I wish the links between the prazipro and any other possible triggers that were unknowingly present in your system could be determined.

I am in the prazipro portion of a QT cycle right now. I have a couple of questions for you. Pardon me if you already stated this and I've overlooked it. Did you treat the QT with copper before the prazi? Which copper product? What concentration? Did you remove the copper prior to adding the prazi? Any residual copper when the prazi was added? What concentration? Did you use any other meds simultaneoulsy with either the copper or prazi?

I feel for you and your loss and I hope the fish remaining in your QT system make it through.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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In medicine, when a researcher publishes a result we usually consider it true if it is repeatable by many other studies and other researchers. My results are: praziquantel was safe for over 20 fish (not enough evidence to consider safe, but an important number).

If you consider how many hobbysts have also done this treatment or QT, I would consider astonishingly premature to consider it unsafe based on a single person’s experience.

By the way, that medication has been seriously studied, these are some examples on the literature:



Noga. Fish Disease. Chapter 8. Page 123-128
 

Plzpizza

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Umm you having a bad experience with it doesn’t make it unsafe when hundreds other people have used it will no ill effect. It is pretty bad on wrasse but everything else I had good results from it.

I would consider maybe your livestock were not good to begin with to be honest I’ve bought fish that looked fat and healthy would just die out in 4 days fresh out of the bag from the shipment from suppliers. The way they were caught could also be a issue
 

RobW

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I've never quarantined any fish. The place that I buy my fish from quarantines for 45 days. you can buy the fish that are in quarantine from him but he will not let them leave the store until they are finished with their quarantine period. The owner has been in the hobby nearly 40 years. Elite Marine Life in Pompano Beach, Florida. He, hands down sells some of the best specimens that I've seen in a local fish store. He always has a really nice selection of fish, corals and inverts.
 

Malcontent

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In medicine, when a researcher publishes a result we usually consider it true if it is repeatable by many other studies and other researchers. My results are: praziquantel was safe for over 20 fish (not enough evidence to consider safe, but an important number).

If you consider how many hobbysts have also done this treatment or QT, I would consider astonishingly premature to consider it unsafe based on a single person’s experience.

By the way, that medication has been seriously studied, these are some examples on the literature:



Noga. Fish Disease. Chapter 8. Page 123-128

They dissolved praziquantel in alcohol though so that leaves the possibility that the dipropylene glycol solubilizer could be the culprit.

I did find an article on glycols and high BOD:


So it's at least theoretically possible. But that doesn't mean it's actually happening...

Everyone on the freshwater side swears that dechlorinators can deplete dissolved oxygen to dangerous levels because some Youtube moron with a lot of subscribers said so. I dumped 40 mL of Prime into 10 gal of water and dissolved oxygen levels barely budged. In fact, they remained higher than levels in my tank.
 

Jay Hemdal

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For anyone looking into prazi pro, my suggestion is to run away from it until your lungs give out, then crawl a little further.

Over the years, I have read tons of post about how prazi is the safest med in the market, easiest to use etc.

while using it, I consistently would kill 5-6 fish within hours of dosing. believing it was a necessary evil, the last straw came this week.

this week alone I killed the following within 6 hours of dosing prazi, 5 ml per 20 gallon. All these fish I’ve had in my possession for at least 3 weeks , if not more, and they died in less than 6 hours after dose:

bellus angel
Blue throat fairy wrasse
White face butterfly
Arabian butterfly
Blonde Naso
Masked swallowtail angel

You heard that right, administering prazi pro as a prophylactic measure in qt, I killed 6 fish alone this week who were otherwise healthy at the time of dose.

which begs the question, and I am starting to believe this, I’ve killed more fish in “qt” versus going right in. Not the most popular thing to say, and I’m not sure there is a good way because I know velvet can wipe out fish fast, but I myself have killed more by trying to treat than not treating.

oh ad fwiw, having talked to 3-4 vendors who qt fish, they all have presentations about prazi, and I know of two who simply won’t use it.
There are two ways that Prazipro can kill fish acutely: oxygen deprivation and "fluke bleed out". The solvent used in Prazipro is a glycol. It makes up 95% of the product. When you add it to the tank, bacteria populations bloom to consume it. In doing so, they strip oxygen from the water and produce CO2. This can kill fish unless there is really good aeration (not just circulation, you must break the water's surface tension). Typically though, this issue is seen 12 to 36 hours after dosing. The second issue, "fluke bleed out" can occur faster. Basically, the praziquantel works too well on fish that have a heavy gill fluke infestation. As each tiny fluke is knocked off the fish, a little hole in the gill is left. The fish bleeds out from all of these holes. This can kill fish within hours of dosing. One clue is to look at the gills - if they are pink or white, the fish was anemic.

I've never had any issues with Prazipro, I've only seen one negative reaction to praziquantel in 40 years of use - I lost a tarpon for no reason at 4mg/l (double dose).

Jay
 
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Not looking to turn a trend or be some one who pretends to have all the answers.

this has happened to me recently more and more often, and when I reached out to some quarantine folks, they stated the same thing.

I was qting a gem tang, powder blue, and various wrasses a few months ago. A week of no meds, all was fine. Prazi pro and within a day , one by one fish went down.

to answer some of your points, not sure if it triggered a bacterial infection. Dosed at 10 pm, handful of the fish were dead at 5 am, 7 hours later, showing I mine to troubling signs with Jim an hour or dose.

All 20 gallon tanks I have connected do not have kids, not even screen tops. Running about 500 gph, which crashes down 4 inches from drain into sump. In there is a reef octopus skimmer rated for 250 gallons, with lid off running. In each tank is an airline tied to a piece of PVC, with bubbles breaking the surface. Each tank has a return line, aimed down at the surface creating a ripple.

agajn, if it were just me, I’d say I need to look harder. But when two vendors on here tell me they won’t use the stuff anymore, and another two quarantine vendors tell me they use panache, general cure instead for same reason, I think it’s fair to have that info out as well, this way people like me don’t see others in the past double dosing it because it’s so gentle and easy to use. I had a feeling the second I dosed it last night, things would only get ugly by the morning, and when I woke up and looked, I hated being right.
No bloom , yet, but will put uV light back on to prevent that.

That's quite a QT system. All I have ever did are single isolated tank with simple filters and air stone. Both you aand the vendors you talked to have big system QTing many fish. That's a helpful distinction to note.

Bigger system is easier to have oxygen depletion. Like my 40 gallon display can run a day without power with no problem, while people with hundreds of gallon display can lost all the fish overnight when power went out. Also it there 20~30x turnover on the entire system, or power head in each tank?

Many fish kept together for 3 weeks can also means they cross contaminated each other for 3 weeks. Fluke would have the time to infest all fish and grow substantially. Then when they're killed, fish are bleed to death as Jay explained.

So what about not treating many fish in one system, but treat them separately in separate system instead? I don't pretend I know all the answers. But I know when I saw conclusion that's not conclusive. And some basic thought process of how to find answers.
 

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One thing to note... is I have learned not to dose meds or make big changes right before bed as you can't monitor the fish for signs of stress while asleep. I have made that mistake before.
 

misserica22

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For anyone looking into prazi pro, my suggestion is to run away from it until your lungs give out, then crawl a little further.

Over the years, I have read tons of post about how prazi is the safest med in the market, easiest to use etc.

while using it, I consistently would kill 5-6 fish within hours of dosing. believing it was a necessary evil, the last straw came this week.

this week alone I killed the following within 6 hours of dosing prazi, 5 ml per 20 gallon. All these fish I’ve had in my possession for at least 3 weeks , if not more, and they died in less than 6 hours after dose:

bellus angel
Blue throat fairy wrasse
White face butterfly
Arabian butterfly
Blonde Naso
Masked swallowtail angel

You heard that right, administering prazi pro as a prophylactic measure in qt, I killed 6 fish alone this week who were otherwise healthy at the time of dose.

which begs the question, and I am starting to believe this, I’ve killed more fish in “qt” versus going right in. Not the most popular thing to say, and I’m not sure there is a good way because I know velvet can wipe out fish fast, but I myself have killed more by trying to treat than not treating.

oh ad fwiw, having talked to 3-4 vendors who qt fish, they all have presentations about prazi, and I know of two who simply won’t use it.
Did you use copper while using prazi pro?
 

Brian_68

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That sucks. For it to happen that quick there could have been something else as others mention O2 drop, contamination etc.. Many here have used it without dramatic issues like this and there is little on this forum that points to similar mass die out issues.
 
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Wildreefs

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Your QT system is impressive. Clearly you pay attention to details and appreciate the goal of QT.

I also appreciate your attitude towards a product that in one way or another is linked to the death of your fish. I once added a commercial product to a freshwater aquarium, following the mfg instructions to a T, and lost several fish within an hour. I've sworn off on that product too.

I wish the links between the prazipro and any other possible triggers that were unknowingly present in your system could be determined.

I am in the prazipro portion of a QT cycle right now. I have a couple of questions for you. Pardon me if you already stated this and I've overlooked it. Did you treat the QT with copper before the prazi? Which copper product? What concentration? Did you remove the copper prior to adding the prazi? Any residual copper when the prazi was added? What concentration? Did you use any other meds simultaneoulsy with either the copper or prazi?

I feel for you and your loss and I hope the fish remaining in your QT system make it through.

Thanks for sharing.
Sorry for delay. No copper or other med was in tank when prazi was used.
 
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