Still Trying to Help a Torch

[mythesis]

Back on Nov 17, I noticed some of my corals got grumpy: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/grumpy-corals-wait-or-address.1082851/

I added some Calcium & upped the Alk, and things are still limping along.

I've added Chaeto to the 'fuge around the same time, but it doesn't seem to be growing much or impacting nutrients. It's still about the size of a racquetball as it rolls around in there. I had the lights on 24/7 for a while, but now turn them off for 8 hours during the day. (this light:)

Params:
Salinity : 1.025
Temp: 77.1
pH: 8
Ammonia / Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 10.4
Phosphate: 0.45
Calcium: 400
KH: 9.7


I did a 10gal water change (DT = 90gal, Sump = 20 capacity) this weekend with IO Purple Box mixed to 1.025.

I've raised the Ca & Alk using Reef Fusion 2-part

I have 2/3 cup of Carbon in a mesh bag in the sump fully rinsed and changed this weekend.


Is this too much/not enough light? Too much / not enough flow?

I'm trying to be patient and not make drastic changes, but also it's odd this torch has been so closed up for a solid month.

 

[Snowxcross]

Hi -

Do you know what your Mag is? You want to target something at 1300 or above. It's hard to say if your PO4 being .45 is causing your corals to be unhappy but it's possible. In more established reef tanks a higher PO4 isnt bad, and i've seen tanks run .5+. With that said your NO3 is only 10, meaning you want a good 1:1 ratio. If i were you i'd start there. I'd drop my PO4 down to .10 and use GFO to do so. Are you using a skimmer? Run that open.

Additionally, what bacteria are you supplying your tank with? You'll want some sort of beneficial bacteria, possibly pods as well to help your bio load become efficient. Once you have your parameters where you want them, keep them there - stability is key.

 

[mythesis]

I don't know my mag, no, sorry. I could get a test kit for it but was following the advice that it's generally a "follow along" parameter. It's probably worth checking that based on how things are going though.

I have a protein skimmer that runs pretty wet, but will keep that going.

I haven't used GFO before, no. I've been trying to avoid doing a ton of chemistry and let things balance out "naturally".


Bacteria: none. I started with live rock about 6 months ago. I do have a healthy copepod colony established (based on the glass in the mornings), and I just bought a sizeable amount from @reefbysteele for a Christmas present for the fish.

 

[Snowxcross]

I don't know my mag, no, sorry. I could get a test kit for it but was following the advice that it's generally a "follow along" parameter. It's probably worth checking that based on how things are going though.

I have a protein skimmer that runs pretty wet, but will keep that going.

I haven't used GFO before, no. I've been trying to avoid doing a ton of chemistry and let things balance out "naturally".


Bacteria: none. I started with live rock about 6 months ago. I do have a healthy copepod colony established (based on the glass in the mornings), and I just bought a sizeable amount from @reefbysteele for a Christmas present for the fish.

Cool, don't worry about gfo being a chemistry thing. It's a simple way to reduce po4 without chemical liquids. Id recommend a reactor and use rowaphos. I run it 24/7 to keep my po4 stable. I add Tropic Marin bacteria (Nitribiotic). For me it helps with coral health better then most products, but something like microbactor 7 is great too. Ya check mag, you're probably fine but it would be good to know what it is.

 

[Shirak]

Aim for 35ppt salinity which is about 1.0265 sg, 1.025 is a little on the low side. Also good to make sure your salinity device is calibrated. What are you using to measure and calibrate?

I don't see a lot of corals in the picture so my guess is there is nothing wrong with your levels of Ca, Mg other than the salinity being slightly low. Bumping up Salinity a little will raise your Ca, Mg etc.

PO4 is high but not terrible. NO3 is low. The coral looks pale. So my guess is a nutrition and/or light issue. Torches can take a lot of flow so I doubt anything here as long as it's moving.

What lights and par level?

Try target feeding twice a week with chopped frozen mysis if you haven't been feeding it directly.

 

[mythesis]

Thanks both!

 

[mythesis]

Guess the tank is getting a reactor, GFO, and a magnesium tester for Christmas.

I'm sure the corals will appreciate it

 

[mythesis]

Today's Params:

Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 78.1
pH (API): 8
Nitrate (Hanna): 1.7
Phosphate (Hanna): 0.31
Calcium (API): 380;
Calcium (Salifert): 420
KH (Salifert): 8.7
Magnesium (Salifert): 1180
Copper (Hanna): 0.04


About to install the GFO reactor. Anything else you see?

I've been adding PhytoPlankton the last two weeks and some RedSea AB+ sometimes.

 

[mythesis]

Also, thanks @revhtree for the lens kit in the Supporting member package. It's *SO MUCH EASIER* to take pics now!

 

[Shirak]

Today's Params:

Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 78.1
pH (API): 8
Nitrate (Hanna): 1.7
Phosphate (Hanna): 0.31
Calcium (API): 380;
Calcium (Salifert): 420
KH (Salifert): 8.7
Magnesium (Salifert): 1180
Copper (Hanna): 0.04


About to install the GFO reactor. Anything else you see?

I've been adding PhytoPlankton the last two weeks and some RedSea AB+ sometimes.

What are you using for lights? Par levels? The zoa on the right look a little stretched out maybe?

Is that like chunky aragonite? That is pretty coarse. More like gravel than sand. Ok I guess but going to accumulate lots of detritus down deep between the chunks and hard to vacuum.

Seems you are testing for a lot of things some of which I would call unnecessary IMO. Like copper.. no need to test unless you are running copper in a hospital tank.

Did we discuss your salinity measuring? Your Ca and Mg are on the low side but that could be a salinity thing. Should aim for 35ppt which is 1.0265sg. Raising it up a little will also help your Alk levels and pH stability.

Nitrates still very low. I think that is your biggest issue to tackle.

 

[kevgib67]

How often and how much water changes do you do? Really low magnesium, your lps aren’t going to like it that low. I dose mine up to 1400.

 

[mythesis]

@kevgib67 : I had been doing 10% every other week or so. Will do more. We just got the Magnesium tester today, so this is the first I'd seen how low it is.

What are you using for lights? Par levels? The zoa on the right look a little stretched out maybe?

Is that like chunky aragonite? That is pretty coarse. More like gravel than sand. Ok I guess but going to accumulate lots of detritus down deep between the chunks and hard to vacuum.

Seems you are testing for a lot of things some of which I would call unnecessary IMO. Like copper.. no need to test unless you are running copper in a hospital tank.

Did we discuss your salinity measuring? Your Ca and Mg are on the low side but that could be a salinity thing. Should aim for 35ppt which is 1.0265sg. Raising it up a little will also help your Alk levels and pH stability.

Nitrates still very low. I think that is your biggest issue to tackle.

I have 2 XR15's for a 90 gal tank. The Torch is likely getting around 90 par right now, and I'm in the process of increasing to 140. Everything got grumpy right when I initially raised lights to 85% capacity (which would be 140 at the torch), so I dropped them back down to do a longer acclimation. But, I think they got upset because temperatures dropped, not because of the lights.


I did just buy several test kits because I wasn't sure what was going wrong. Figured may as well test to make sure Copper wasn't showing up some how (first time I've tested for it).



This is the first Nitrate test that's been sub-10 in a while. Phosphates had been around 0.5 and just started going down as well (should go down faster with GFO installed today).

I'd been counseled to keep salinity at 1.025, which is where I have it pegged for a long while. Given that I'm starting to deplete more elements, maybe I can raise that up.

 

[kevgib67]

@kevgib67 : I had been doing 10% every other week or so. Will do more. We just got the Magnesium tester today, so this is the first I'd seen how low it is.



I have 2 XR15's for a 90 gal tank. The Torch is likely getting around 90 par right now, and I'm in the process of increasing to 140. Everything got grumpy right when I initially raised lights to 85% capacity (which would be 140 at the torch), so I dropped them back down to do a longer acclimation. But, I think they got upset because temperatures dropped, not because of the lights. I agree ramp up par slowly, 140 par should be perfect, they like moderate light.


I did just buy several test kits because I wasn't sure what was going wrong. Figured may as well test to make sure Copper wasn't showing up some how (first time I've tested for it).



This is the first Nitrate test that's been sub-10 in a while. Phosphates had been around 0.5 and just started going down as well (should go down faster with GFO installed today).

I'd been counseled to keep salinity at 1.025, which is where I have it pegged for a long while. Given that I'm starting to deplete more elements, maybe I can raise that up.

Not sure why you would have so much consumption with what you have in your tank at the moment. My salt said it mixes to 1350 and I questioned it. So I mixed up a fresh batch and sure enough it mixed to 1350 but my magnesium in the tank was running below 1300 even with weekly 12.5% water changes. I began dosing to 1400 and my torches, Frogspawn and hammers have been very happy.

 

[mythesis]

Well I just tested my mixed water --- Instant Ocean Purple Box

Magnesium was 1180 in the mixed water. So that's the issue!

 

[kevgib67]

Well I just tested my mixed water --- Instant Ocean Purple Box

Magnesium was 1180 in the mixed water. So that's the issue!

What’s the box say it is supposed to mix to? Instant Ocean is a solid product, I suppose a bad batch could slip through. What product are you using to test?

 

[mythesis]

What’s the box say it is supposed to mix to? Instant Ocean is a solid product, I suppose a bad batch could slip through. What product are you using to test?

I test salinity using a Milwaukee Refractometer (and just recalibrated it today to be 100% sure I wasn't missing --- it was still reading 1.000 on the calibration fluid before I re-zeroed it)

I am using Salifert to test Magnesium. 2 oz water; 5 drops; plunger went from 1.0 -> 0.21

 

[kevgib67]

I test salinity using a Milwaukee Refractometer (and just recalibrated it today to be 100% sure I wasn't missing --- it was still reading 1.000 on the calibration fluid before I re-zeroed it)

I am using Salifert to test Magnesium. 2 oz water; 5 drops; plunger went from 1.0 -> 0.21

You mean 2 ml water?

 

[Shirak]

I test salinity using a Milwaukee Refractometer (and just recalibrated it today to be 100% sure I wasn't missing --- it was still reading 1.000 on the calibration fluid before I re-zeroed it)

I am using Salifert to test Magnesium. 2 oz water; 5 drops; plunger went from 1.0 -> 0.21

Milwaukee is good. Calibrated with distilled water?
Not sure about 1.000 calibration fluid. I make a DIY calibration fluid for refractometers so I know it's on the money. I have had issues with commercial calibration fluids in the past.

Most likely your parameters are low because you are mixing to 1.025sg. You can run that if you want. Natural seawater is higher at 1.026sg. Many reefers run 1.026-1.028sg. I use 1.027sg

The other thing to consider is test kits. There is a margin of error in them of around 50ppm +- of the actual value. Magnesium is especially difficult to test for with a hobby kit and most likely quite inaccurate. Thread in the reef chemistry forum not long ago on this.

The IO purple box is also the basic salt water mix? So probably closer to nsw levels on the Ca, Mg etc. It may say on the package. They often will list what the parameters should be at different concentrations.

 

[Ksturg]

Today's Params:

Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 78.1
pH (API): 8
Nitrate (Hanna): 1.7
Phosphate (Hanna): 0.31
Calcium (API): 380;
Calcium (Salifert): 420
KH (Salifert): 8.7
Magnesium (Salifert): 1180
Copper (Hanna): 0.04


About to install the GFO reactor. Anything else you see?

I've been adding PhytoPlankton the last two weeks and some RedSea AB+ sometimes.

I run my mag between 1450 and 1500…I use rowaphos and only change it like every 3 months but I also have a 25 lagoon.

 

[mythesis]

Milwaukee is good. Calibrated with distilled water?
Not sure about 1.000 calibration fluid. I make a DIY calibration fluid for refractometers so I know it's on the money. I have had issues with commercial calibration fluids in the past.

Most likely your parameters are low because you are mixing to 1.025sg. You can run that if you want. Natural seawater is higher at 1.026sg. Many reefers run 1.026-1.028sg. I use 1.027sg

The other thing to consider is test kits. There is a margin of error in them of around 50ppm +- of the actual value. Magnesium is especially difficult to test for with a hobby kit and most likely quite inaccurate. Thread in the reef chemistry forum not long ago on this.

The IO purple box is also the basic salt water mix? So probably closer to nsw levels on the Ca, Mg etc. It may say on the package. They often will list what the parameters should be at different concentrations.

Doesn't say on the package, no. It is the more basic salt though, yes.

I think I saw a Randy thread about not testing magnesium, that's why I didn't have a test until today. But, low Mg would explain a grumpy torch right? Moreso than high (0.5) but stable, phosphate?