Stringy white clownfish poop

[EmdeReef]

I was clarifying this complete inaccuracy or misstatement

That’s why I quoted it there

And SS it here

I am trying to be clear

I’m very confused.

Also in the context of my post I stand behind my statement... can bacterial resistance develop in 10days or even 1 day - yes, but generally it doesn’t ;) (fortunately for us)

 

[Foothill Corals]

It is starting to feel like people just come here to argue these days?

It looks like the OP left this argument 4 pages ago.

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

It is starting to feel like people just come here to argue these days?

It looks like the OP left this argument 4 pages ago.

I have knowledge of the material.

If someone states that animals develop a resistance to bacteria, I’m going to ask for clarification.

Or provide it. I suppose many people call this arguing.

There is a better way to say this. If the poster want to leave it. Fine.

Humans at least do not developed resistance to bacteria. Not in the sense that bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics.

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

Mycobacterium marinum
.

Sincerely Lasse
[/SIZE]

This disease could get very nasty in humans.

I don’t know of any cases.

But related organisms can be devastatingly devastating.

Thanks for the heads up

 

[EmdeReef]

I have knowledge of the material.

If someone states that animals develop a resistance to bacteria, I’m going to ask for clarification.

Or provide it. I suppose many people call this arguing.

There is a better way to say this. If the poster want to leave it. Fine.

Humans at least do not developed resistance to bacteria. Not in the sense that bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics.

Guess it evolved on its own as no longer a complete “misstatement/inaccuracy”?! :)

While I loathe debating matters taken out of context, I’m curious what’s so offending about the quoted statement? You’ve asked some unrelated questions thus far.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Its internal and should be treated ASAP.
Ive had success with PraziPro but diet alone can turn this around. I came into this thread late. If no one asked- What foods are you feeding?

 

[Lasse]

Not all antibiotics are banned in farmed fish, the practice of indiscriminate addition of antibiotics to the feed or water has been restricted although not outright banned in many places. Many antibiotics are still used, in developed countries you need a vet to say it’s fine to use the regulations are very lax and there’s little oversight. Testing is done randomly...

You’re conflating the continuous use of antibiotics on fish farms vs. an occasional treatment... FWIW metro gets metabolized pretty fast. Some of the more recent FAO guidelines for fish farms, suggest discontinuing the use of certain antibiotics 15 days before harvest.

If you are curious about this you can read a few interesting studies on residual bioavailability of antibiotics in fish tissue at different time intervals.

Again, with respect, the comparison is invalid...

The antibiotics that´s are still in use in fish farms are water soluble antibiotics - they have left the fish body after 15 - 30 days. The ones - some antibiotics as Metronidazole and nifurpirinol and some anti parasitic drugs as QP and others are banned for use at all. Not allowed even with prescription - at least in Europe.

It won’t happen after administering antibiotics for 10-14 days which is what most protocols recommend. Again, theoretically anything is possible but the resistance (fortunately for us) doesn’t occur so easily.

I´m sorry to say that a gill fluke from the genus dactylogyrus developed resistance against a common used antihelmic agent already after a few treatments in eel farms there I worked in the 80:ties. However - I do not remmember if the active agent was Fenbendazole or Praziquantel.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Just an update on the clown. I have done no medical treatment and she has not had a stringy white poop since that one occurence. Normal color and size has returned. I will continue to monitor

 

[Lasse]

Just an update on the clown. I have done no medical treatment and she has not had a stringy white poop since that one occurence. Normal color and size has returned. I will continue to monitor

Thank you for the update

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Just an update on the clown. I have done no medical treatment and she has not had a stringy white poop since that one occurence. Normal color and size has returned. I will continue to monitor

Great news.

Somehow your question got a little diverted huh. It went from stringy poop to never eating fish again;).

I apologize for my post which was not really helpful for the specific question, and I guess some thought I came off as arguing which wasn’t intended. Hope you continue to ask questions.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Great news.

Somehow your question got a little diverted huh. It went from stringy poop to never eating fish again;).

I apologize for my post which was not really helpful for the specific question, and I guess some thought I came off as arguing which wasn’t intended. Hope you continue to ask questions.

Dont worry! Debating is a part of the community. There are no rights or wrongs. The hobby is always evolving and there are many correct answers. I love seeing peoples points of views and research

 

[bblumberg]

Here’s a photo of an angel of mine that I treated with Metro and focus, Prozi, General cure during a three month QT and still couldn’t cure it. It’s poop will be normal for most of the week and then I see this. Sometimes it is whiter in color. Kind of looks like it is in hotdog casing. Otherwise it is a very healthy looking and acting fish that I have had for over a year in the display tank. No other fish has shown any signs of this condition. I’ll be following to see how you make out. Keep us updated on how your clown does. Good luck.

Grab a chunk of it and look under a microscope to get an idea of what it is...

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

I have a single question

If a drug is considered so dangerous to humans that fish grown as food should not be treated with this drug at all, it must be because the drug or its metabolites never disappear from the fish. They are still active or toxic metabolites have been formed. If we ignore the impact on man - is it anyone here who believes that the fish is not affected at all?

Fuerther - this ban - never to be used in food fish - is valid for most of the anti parasitic drugs that are recommended here. Is valid for all lipophilic drugs. Metronidazole is one of them - it is also a traditional antibiotica against anaerobic gut bacteria. A lipophilc taditional antibiotica as Nifurpirinol is also banned of the same reasons. They or metabolites from them is in the fish for ever - the fish have very difficult to get rid of them.

With water soluble antibiotics is a different task. They will leave the fish body after a while - not make longtime damage in the fish and will not be trasfered to us. These drugs is allowed to treat food fish with but have normally a clearing time of 30 minutes.

For the books. There is a zoonose according to fish bacteria. It is Mycobacterium marinum. It is very common in aquarium fish and can be trasfered to man.

Sincerely Lasse

It’s not that they are dangerous.

It is taught that Vancomycin Resistant Staph Aureus came from treating sheep feed in Australia

And then it moved to humans.

I doubt this. (Vanco is given to humans IV not PO)

Patient zero with MRSA was an AIDs patient in Japan in 1989

Patient zero with VRSA was an AIDs patient in New York a few years later.

MRDOs, despite public relations narratives to the contrary, came mostly from giving antibiotics long term, over years, to humans with no immune systems.

So the rationale is, give antibiotics to feed animals, MRDOs will spread to humans.

And thus we have absurd discussions like this one, where people think it’s horrible to treat their goldfish with Cipro or Metro.

The only antibiotic that becomes toxic to humans is tetracycline. And that is when it passes it’s expiration by a few years.

 

[Eddie7144]

Prazipro is reef safe. I've used it to treat a pyramid butterfly that had flukes. I've dosed my mixed reef with sps in it 4 different times and no coral lose ever. My NEM was mad for one day and bounces back. Only thing I would be careful with is feather dusters and worms. Not sure how well it will work in inter parasites but the literature says it works for that too.

 

[bblumberg]

It’s not that they are dangerous.

It is taught that Vancomycin Resistant Staph Aureus came from treating sheep feed in Australia

And then it moved to humans.

I doubt this. (Vanco is given to humans IV not PO)

Vancomycin is not typically given to meat animals due to its expense, but cheaper antibiotics such as avoparcin confer resistance to vancomycin. See here for one discussion of this
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673699023958

The major and fundamental problem is that there is widespread use of antibiotics in meat farming as growth promoters. These antibiotics are given at sub-therapeutic doses to help animals tolerate crowding and still grow well. If you want to design a scenario to create antibiotic resistant bacteria, this is precisely it.

Patient zero with MRSA was an AIDs patient in Japan in 1989

Patient zero with VRSA was an AIDs patient in New York a few years later.

Both of these are unlikely. Please provide references. I'd expect that these resistant bacteria cropped up multiple times and in diverse places, rather than springing up in one place and spreading across the world.

MRDOs, despite public relations narratives to the contrary, came mostly from giving antibiotics long term, over years, to humans with no immune systems.

So the rationale is, give antibiotics to feed animals, MRDOs will spread to humans.

It is demonstrably true that MRDOs organisms are present in meat animals and are transferred to humans. I could list hundreds of publications that support this. Have a quick Google search...

And thus we have absurd discussions like this one, where people think it’s horrible to treat their goldfish with Cipro or Metro.

The only antibiotic that becomes toxic to humans is tetracycline. And that is when it passes it’s expiration by a few years.

I agree with you that treating our fish with therapeutic levels of medication is unlikely to create much antibiotic resistance in the environment (although one wonders about in our aquariums and filters). You should also keep in mind that many pharmaceutical drugs we use in our aquariums, or even take ourselves, end up in sewage waste where they are only incompletely broken down. Perhaps you have read about intersex fish in rivers in the US and around the world?
https://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/fish_endocrine_disruption.html

Such pharmaceutical are called contaminants of emerging concern.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3938815/

In most cases, the danger from overuse of antibiotics is not from them being, or becoming toxic to humans but rather the widespread resistance to antibiotics that is springing up in bacteria present in the environment. There are many sources for this: use in meat animals, overuse in people, etc.

see also
https://tind-customer-agecon.s3.amazonaws.com/1df7935a-e1a6-4283-8bd0-8305e7907f84?response-content-disposition=inline; filename*=UTF-8''err200.pdf&response-content-type=application/pdf&AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAXL7W7Q3XHXDVDQYS&Expires=1562379961&Signature=atTu/siL+9wo3mI6wJYQWYo3Rxs=

 

[Lasse]

This thread was about stringy white poop in a clownfish and if it was needed to treat with metro and/or anthelmintics asap with only that indication. In this case - the question has got it answer.

I agree with you that treating our fish with therapeutic levels of medication is unlikely to create much antibiotic resistance in the environment (although one wonders about in our aquariums and filters)

IMO - it does not matter where the sink for antibiotic resistant bacteria will be. IMO it is more likely that antibiotic resistant bacteria will be developed in a small closed/semi closed system than in open space. IMO - there is a reason why we can see this happens in smaller departments of large hospitals. Further on - the bacteria developed can go further into the population outside the sink. But the risk is not mainly on a population level. It is more a private risk to end up at the hospital with a normal infection that cannot be defeated with normal antibiotics. It is true that most bacteria (even antibiotic resistant bacteria) will be defeated by our immune system but this is not always at is top. Stress, other medication, genes, number of pathogens, virulence of that strain and so on decide if you will get a disease or not. If you get a disease that your immune system will not manage, it is of huge importance for the individual that the normal antibiotics does work.

According to Metronidazole it has been a catastrophe for me in person if I had got antibiotic resistant anaerobic bacteria/anaerobic flagellates in my digestive tract. This because I have had several intestinal leakages in connection with operations against ileus. Do not the mention the nightmare that someone would be infected of an antibiotic resistant strains of Mycobacterium marinum or Vibrio cholerae/Vibrio vulnificus (vibriosis) All of this are zoonoses (can be spread from animal to humans) These bacteria are always present in sea water aquarium (in FW M.marinum and the FW analog for vibrio bacteria - the pseudomonas) For me – beside the risk for the whole society – it is a personal risk that every aquarium owner take for him/herself and other in the same household. It could also be a work environment problem for people working in industry, those who are most often exposed to Mycobacterium marinum or Vibrio cholerae / Vibrio vulnificus.

To recommend people to use antibiotics to their fish without sufficient indications of a particular disease and/or not inform about the risks is IMO to do them a possible björntjänst (Swedish expression used since 1891 referring to a French fable (by Jean de La Fontaine) in which a tame bear wants to do his master a favour by hitting the fly who sat down on the master's forehead, but hits the fly so hard that the master too is killed.)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

@bblumberg
Thank you for the references. I have in person been part of an experiment back in the 90:ties (unpublished as I know) there goldfish was exposed for wastewater from a Swedish folk college containing around 200 pupils in the age from 18 - 35 years, 100 of them lived at the school. Everyone in the age of 18 - 35 years that have lived in a boarding school with mixed pupils knows the importance of birth control :) :) I did construct the test and manage it during the test period. The experiment clearly shows what others have found - poorer reproductive capacity. At that time - It was believed that these lipophilic substances that have been excreted from the body through hydrolysis in the MFO system ( in short - a hydrophilic part added to the substance or its metabolite and after that transported out through the urine - this also deactivate the action of the compound) will be reactivated again in the anaerobic part of the waste water treatment plant (a split between the hydrophilic part and the lipophilic part leaving the hormonelike substance active again). The place was chosen because the pupils was willing to answer questions about the use of birth control, the school used around 90 % eco-friendly chemicals and we had a good control what was coming into the waste treatment plant. It was a pree study but did not get further economical support (at that time - this was not as hot as it is now and the application did not contain anything about dioxines - the environmental hot thing in Sweden at that time :))

(lipophilic – fat lower or fat soluble; hydrophilic – water lower or water soluble)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[bblumberg]

This thread was about stringy white poop in a clownfish and if it was needed to treat with metro and/or anthelmintics asap with only that indication. In this case - the question has got it answer.



IMO - it does not matter where the sink for antibiotic resistant bacteria will be. IMO it is more likely that antibiotic resistant bacteria will be developed in a small closed/semi closed system than in open space. IMO - there is a reason why we can see this happens in smaller departments of large hospitals. Further on - the bacteria developed can go further into the population outside the sink. But the risk is not mainly on a population level. It is more a private risk to end up at the hospital with a normal infection that cannot be defeated with normal antibiotics. It is true that most bacteria (even antibiotic resistant bacteria) will be defeated by our immune system but this is not always at is top. Stress, other medication, genes, number of pathogens, virulence of that strain and so on decide if you will get a disease or not. If you get a disease that your immune system will not manage, it is of huge importance for the individual that the normal antibiotics does work.

According to Metronidazole it has been a catastrophe for me in person if I had got antibiotic resistant anaerobic bacteria/anaerobic flagellates in my digestive tract. This because I have had several intestinal leakages in connection with operations against ileus. Do not the mention the nightmare that someone would be infected of an antibiotic resistant strains of Mycobacterium marinum or Vibrio cholerae/Vibrio vulnificus (vibriosis) All of this are zoonoses (can be spread from animal to humans) These bacteria are always present in sea water aquarium (in FW M.marinum and the FW analog for vibrio bacteria - the pseudomonas) For me – beside the risk for the whole society – it is a personal risk that every aquarium owner take for him/herself and other in the same household. It could also be a work environment problem for people working in industry, those who are most often exposed to Mycobacterium marinum or Vibrio cholerae / Vibrio vulnificus.

To recommend people to use antibiotics to their fish without sufficient indications of a particular disease and/or not inform about the risks is IMO to do them a possible björntjänst (Swedish expression used since 1891 referring to a French fable (by Jean de La Fontaine) in which a tame bear wants to do his master a favour by hitting the fly who sat down on the master's forehead, but hits the fly so hard that the master too is killed.)

Sincerely Lasse

We are in agreement about the use of prophylactic antibiotics for reef tanks. I usually don't do it, but also totally understand why some feel the need. However, with fish that will go into my discus tanks, I treat during quarantine with metronidazole and prazipro...

 

[bblumberg]

@bblumberg
Thank you for the references. I have in person been part of an experiment back in the 90:ties (unpublished as I know) there goldfish was exposed for wastewater from a Swedish folk college containing around 200 pupils in the age from 18 - 35 years, 100 of them lived at the school. Everyone in the age of 18 - 35 years that have lived in a boarding school with mixed pupils knows the importance of birth control :) :) I did construct the test and manage it during the test period. The experiment clearly shows what others have found - poorer reproductive capacity. At that time - It was believed that these lipophilic substances that have been excreted from the body through hydrolysis in the MFO system ( in short - a hydrophilic part added to the substance or its metabolite and after that transported out through the urine - this also deactivate the action of the compound) will be reactivated again in the anaerobic part of the waste water treatment plant (a split between the hydrophilic part and the lipophilic part leaving the hormonelike substance active again). The place was chosen because the pupils was willing to answer questions about the use of birth control, the school used around 90 % eco-friendly chemicals and we had a good control what was coming into the waste treatment plant. It was a pree study but did not get further economical support (at that time - this was not as hot as it is now and the application did not contain anything about dioxines - the environmental hot thing in Sweden at that time :))

(lipophilic – fat lower or fat soluble; hydrophilic – water lower or water soluble)

Sincerely Lasse

Many folks in the toxicology community believe that once chemicals are conjugated to sugars, or sulfates, to make them more water soluble, they are no longer biologically active. In many cases this is false, both in the original organism, and as you note in the environment, or during waste treatment. It is very easy to chop off the hydrophilc group, yielding the original chemical.

Getting pharmaceuticals out of waste water is a very big problem that remains to be solved economically.

 

[Lasse]

However, with fish that will go into my discus tanks, I treat during quarantine with metronidazole and prazipro...

Just a question - do you use beef heart to your discus?

Sincerely Lasse