Stringy white clownfish poop

[HotRocks]

You are right - as you can see in this article And it shows that there is a hope for everyone even for those who have sinned :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

Now we are sinning? That is a little much eh...?

 

[Lasse]

You maybe note the :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HotRocks]

You maybe note the :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

Got ya, it was a joke! ;)

 

[Brew12]

You do or have treated all of your fish prophylactically though correct?

Every fish has been treated with copper or CP. I have treated some more recent fish with GC added to the water. I've only given one fish medicated food even though almost all of them have shown white stringy poo at one time or another.

But to be clear, I'm not even objecting to the advice given. I'm only objecting to the characterization of what Lasse is recommending as being anything other than the most current commonly accepted scientific advice. Non veterinarians treating with antibiotics is what is typically considered reckless and is illegal in many countries. I understand exactly why you make the recommendations you do and I respect your motivation. That doesn't make Lasses comments less valid.

 

[Paul Sands]

Again, I respect the reasoning behind what you do. All I mean with my comment is that this practice isn't accepted by the scientific community as a best practice. It is a practice that is considered potentially dangerous/reckless which is why it is being banned in more and more countries. Unlike what was implied, what @Lasse recommends matches what is recommended by the scientific community. That comment is what I object to.

I doubt the marine fish hobby will disappear from Canada now that antibiotics are no longer OTC. It didn't disappear from Europe even though they have required a vets prescription there for many years. When they are finally banned in the US, we will need to adapt just like they did.

If this is “mainstream” medical opinion, why don’t you quote something that states it? Instead you link to some random FDA report that doesn’t even apply in this situation. You knew that those recommendations are only for commercial food farms pumping chickens full of antibiotics on a daily basis, but you presented them as though they were somehow relevant to the single person that wants to care for a fish displaying symptoms. They aren’t relevant. They aren’t even close.

Please show me the data showing that the scientific community disagrees with treating fish that display symptoms, otherwise, please stop making sweeping false statements.

 

[Brew12]

If this is “mainstream” medical opinion, why don’t you quote something that states it? Instead you link to some random FDA report that doesn’t even apply in this situation. You knew that those recommendations are only for commercial food farms pumping chickens full of antibiotics on a daily basis, but you presented them as though they were somehow relevant to the single person that wants to care for a fish displaying symptoms. They aren’t relevant. They aren’t even close.

Please show me the data showing that the scientific community disagrees with treating fish that display symptoms, otherwise, please stop making sweeping false statements.

First, the quote I copied out of the FDA's post did not specify it only applied to food animals. It was a general statement contained within a document about food animals. You recognize you have already lost this discussion so are resorting to "no true Scotsman" arguments.
Here is an entire section of links you can read which explain why Canada just banned antibiotics without a veterinarians prescription. Including metroplex and Kanaplex so it is very relevant to the aquarium hobby.
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/antibiotic-antimicrobial-resistance.html

Now it's your turn. Show me a reputable source that says hobbyists treating with antibiotics without veterinary guidance is an acceptable practice. I have a feeling I'll be waiting awhile.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Take the advice of those of us in the fish disease forum, or don’t. It’s everyone’s choice. I don’t like the fact that fish are as sick as they are but this is how I will treat them to give them a fighting chance. My existing fish thank me, and others are free to do as they wish. I don’t see how a constant quarrel is helpful. We can respectfully disagree, and people can make their own choices, and we can all move on.

I spend less time worrying about what should be, and more time focused on “what is”. I’m fine with other viewpoints. Let’s move on.

 

[bluprntguy]

So its possibly not a problem?

I think you have a choice. You can listen to the people that spend countless hours on this board selflessly trying to help others or you can listen to the people that don't practice what they preach and misrepresent FDA guidance meant for commercial hog farms as evidence that the "scientific community" agrees with them. :):)

 

[Paul Sands]

First, the quote I copied out of the FDA's post did not specify it only applied to food animals. I

Literally, the VERY. FIRST. SENTENCE.

“FDA is taking action to promote the judicious use of medically important antimicrobial drugs in food animals.”

Item #3 notes “productions purposes”. Item #6 says “animal producers”. Item #7 says “food producing animals”. Item #9 says food “producers”.

Literally the entire document is clearly aimed at food production. Honestly have no idea how anyone could read this and not realize that it is about food production and has nothing to do with hobbyists.

 

[Brew12]

Literally, the VERY. FIRST. SENTENCE.

“FDA is taking action to promote the judicious use of medically important antimicrobial drugs in food animals.”

Item #3 notes “productions purposes”. Item #6 says “animal producers”. Item #7 says “food producing animals”. Item #9 says food “producers”.

Literally the entire document is clearly aimed at food production. Honestly have no idea how anyone could read this and not realize that it is about food production and has nothing to do with hobbyists.

So do you discount every study on fish health done on food fish? Almost all of the research that has been done on fish health is done because of fish farming. That doesn't make the lessons learned any less valid. Do you think that microbial immunity is magically only developed when antibiotics are improperly used in food fish but that it isn't possible with hobbyist fish? Do you seriously want to go there?

I'm still waiting for your scientifically valid source that says hobbyists treating with antibiotics is considered an acceptable practice. And yes.. I know I'll have to wait a long time....

 

[Paul Sands]

So do you discount every study on fish health done on food fish? Almost all of the research that has been done on fish health is done because of fish farming. That doesn't make the lessons learned any less valid. Do you think that microbial immunity is magically only developed when antibiotics are improperly used in food fish but that it isn't possible with hobbyist fish? Do you seriously want to go there?

I think there is a difference between a hobbyist treating one fish showing symptoms and a commercial farm pumping hundreds of thousand of chickens full of antibiotics constantly 24/7/365. The FDA voluntary guidance was meant to apply to the latter.

 

[Brew12]

I think you have a choice. You can listen to the people that spend countless hours on this board selflessly trying to help others or you can listen to the people that don't practice what they preach and misrepresent FDA guidance meant for commercial hog farms as evidence that the "scientific community" agrees with them. :):)

For the record, I haven't given any advice to the OP. In fact, I told them I wouldn't think less of them either way. It is their choice to make.

However, you could just as easily have said You can listen to some hobbyists who spend countless hours trying to help people on this board or someone who is giving advice that isn't illegal in most OECD countries.
But hey... what do scientists know....

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Since the vast majority of us aren’t taking fish to a vet, we operate within the parameters we can.

If you don’t like treating fish, don’t. If you want to cure your fish, treat them. If you think you can keep fish alive today without treatment, please tell us how you do it, and show us a repeatable way. Until then, this is what parameters we have to work with short of staffing a veterinarian office and paying exorbitant amounts per fish and the fish likely dying before we have ID’d the culprit.

Evening all,

Implying unless you medicate them you will not be able to keep them alive is a bit of an overstatement. We will always need treatment plans for things. Taking the approach a fish has no immune system of their own to get better is a bit shortsighted (if I used that word correctly:)) and only meds can cure them.

As for a repeatable way to keep fish alive, it is thru food and environment. And (wait for it) ....don’t qt. None of mine get Qt. Last addition was my file fish I dumped in last month, already gone thru 1/2 my aptasia.

I had 3 tangs go thru either bad ICH or maybe brook/velvet and now are fine. It took 2 to 3 weeks as it went from one to the other, but it is now gone. My Vlamingi also decided it would be fun to have popeye. It started last week, for most part gone. The commonality is no treatment. I believe by pulling them out. Dumping heavy meds that stress them out reduces their strength causes so bad as much as good.

This was when it first appeared, it got worse before gone.

 

[bluprntguy]

For the record, I haven't given any advice to the OP. In fact, I told them I wouldn't think less of them either way. It is their choice to make.

However, you could just as easily have said You can listen to some hobbyists who spend countless hours trying to help people on this board or someone who is giving advice that isn't illegal in most OECD countries.

From what I saw online, it seems the reasons for the bans on fish medications in other countries are that stupid people and criminals were using them to treat infections in humans (like gunshot wounds) instead of going to the hospital for medical care.

I found these quotes in the Smithsonian which seems to disprove your claim that absolutely everyone in the scientific community thinks this is a gigantic issue that needs to be stopped immediately:

"Why aren’t they regulated? According to some veterinarians, they’re simply too small of a problem for the agency to bother with. Pet fish antibiotics make up a tiny fraction of the total amount of antibiotics used, says Samuel Young, a veterinarian and founder of the Uncommon Creatures Mobile Veterinary Services, which treats animals from fish to gila monsters to llamas. Thus, pet fish meds don’t pose nearly the same risks as antibiotics used for food animals, which the FDA is currently working to regulate more tightly."

"The FDA says that it does not have any data on how prevalent the fish antibiotics problem is. "We are currently looking into these products," representatives wrote in a statement. 'FDA considers taking action based on its resources, the risk the product poses, and its public health priorities.'"

If hobbyists using API "General Cure" to treat white stringy poop was a problem, it seems that the FDA would have looked into it and done something. They haven't even bothered.

 

[Brew12]

I think there is a difference between a hobbyist treating one fish showing symptoms and a commercial farm pumping hundreds of thousand of chickens full of antibiotics constantly 24/7/365. The FDA voluntary guidance was meant to apply to the latter.

Where is the science that says metronidazole used by a hobbyist is less likely to cause microbial resistance than metronidazole used on a fish farm or hog farm?
The reason the FDA guidance was voluntary only occurred because of the administration change in 2016. Had it not been rolled back, we already would have lost access to those antibiotics. And it could still happen at any time. More and more drug makers are being coerced into making their antibiotics prescription only. Hobbyist antibiotics aren't high on the target list, but they will get there eventually.

So again... I'm waiting... where is documentation that says that unsupervised use of antibiotics by a hobbyist is accepted by the scientific or medical community?

I can't stress this enough... prophylactic treatment and treatment without a vets prescription is still allowed in the US for now. I have no issue with people making those recommendations and I respect the work they put in. But it does hold true that the majority of the OECD countries do not allow hobbyists to administer antibiotics without a prescription and that is done for a reason. It isn't some secret hidden agenda. It is the more widely held view from a global perspective.

 

[Brew12]

I found these quotes in the Smithsonian which seems to disprove your claim that absolutely everyone in the scientific community thinks this is a gigantic issue that needs to be stopped immediately:

Find me a quote where I said EVERYONE in the scientific community thinks this is a "gigantic issue" and needs to be "stopped immediately"?

Right there you have completely misrepresented what I have said 3 times. Is your position so weak that you need to resort to making it look like I said something I haven't?
What I have said is that the majority of the scientific and medical communities do not support unsupervised use of antibiotics and that it has already been made illegal in many OECD countries and more are working toward it. But hey, this is the internet, you can pretend I said whatever you want I guess.

If hobbyists using API "General Cure" to treat white stringy poop was a problem, it seems that the FDA would have looked into it and done something. They haven't even bothered.

I agree that it is lower on the list of things they are worried about. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they won't or it isn't a problem. Even the random veterinarians you quoted called it "too small of a problem" and not the "isn't a problem" that you claim. So not only are you misrepresenting what I am saying, but you are also misrepresenting what your sources are saying. Well done.

 

[Brew12]

I don't know why this causes such irrational debate. I guess it is the nature of the aquarium hobby. We have our chosen brands and practices and everyone else must be wrong. People who use MH lights and those who use LED's argue endlessly. I just don't see the point.

@HotRocks and @4FordFamily (with an Aston) have spent countless hours and a huge personal expense to work on finding what they feel are better ways to treat fish. They are passionate about what they do because they have found it to work. They teach others those methods because they want others to have the same success using them that they have had. What they are recommending is still legal in the US and this is a US based forum. They should be appreciated for the efforts they put in.

On the flip side, microbial resistances are also a real thing. It is valid to question using antibiotics without a solid diagnosis. Many OECD countries require a vet's prescription for a reason. Through his professional career @Lasse has handled more fish than all but a small handful of members on R2R. We shouldn't discredit his input on these topics either.

If anything we should support and encourage more discussion and less conflict to try and further the hobby. Being presented with more sides of the story also allows people to make more informed decisions. Why wouldn't we encourage this?

 

[4FordFamily]

Evening all,

Implying unless you medicate them you will not be able to keep them alive is a bit of an overstatement. We will always need treatment plans for things. Taking the approach a fish has no immune system of their own to get better is a bit shortsighted (if I used that word correctly:)) and only meds can cure them.

As for a repeatable way to keep fish alive, it is thru food and environment. And (wait for it) ....don’t qt. None of mine get Qt. Last addition was my file fish I dumped in last month, already gone thru 1/2 my aptasia.

I had 3 tangs go thru either bad ICH or maybe brook/velvet and now are fine. It took 2 to 3 weeks as it went from one to the other, but it is now gone. My Vlamingi also decided it would be fun to have popeye. It started last week, for most part gone. The commonality is no treatment. I believe by pulling them out. Dumping heavy meds that stress them out reduces their strength causes so bad as much as good.

This was when it first appeared, it got worse before gone.

Not quarantining fish did not work well for me once I ventured in to expert level fish and difficult tangs. It doesn’t seem to work for many others. When we can isolate what works for some of you and make it repeatable that will be groundbreaking.

Again, I’m here to help those that want help. Not argue with those who do not. I’m fine if people don’t want to heed my advice. We are all perfectly entitled to our own opinions, and I am glad what you’re doing works for you. When I kept hardy fish, it worked for me too. I didn’t quarantine for my first ten years in the hobby. The quality of fish I receive now and the types of fish I keep (I believe) require parasite eradication. I have many tangs and angels and other fish thriving in that environment in a 500 gallon and a 180 gallon. That doesn’t mean I have the only answers.

 

[Paul Sands]

Find me a quote where I said EVERYONE in the scientific community thinks this is a "gigantic issue" and needs to be "stopped immediately"?

Right there you have completely misrepresented what I have said 3 times. Is your position so weak that you need to resort to making it look like I said something I haven't?
What I have said is that the majority of the scientific and medical communities do not support unsupervised use of antibiotics and that it has already been made illegal in many OECD countries and more are working toward it. But hey, this is the internet, you can pretend I said whatever you want I guess.


I agree that it is lower on the list of things they are worried about. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they won't or it isn't a problem. Even the random veterinarians you quoted called it "too small of a problem" and not the "isn't a problem" that you claim. So not only are you misrepresenting what I am saying, but you are also misrepresenting what your sources are saying. Well done.

Is your position so weak that you have to misrepresent FDA guidance about food production and claim it applies to hobbyists keeping reef tanks?

Yeah, it’s a bit of a exaggeration to say you said everyone thinks it’s a huge problem, but in a thread where lasse called people that medicate their fish “sinners” it’s kind of hard to claim that there’s a gold standard here. You did indicate that pretty much the entire scientific community agrees with you, which they don’t. At least I don’t.

Apparently if you put two smileys at the end of the post it’s all good. :) :)

 

[Brew12]

Is your position so weak that you have to misrepresent FDA guidance about food production and claim it applies to hobbyists keeping reef tanks?

Why do you feel statements about antibiotic use by non vets do not apply to hobbyists? Again, is there something magical that alleviates those concerns? You will need to explain to me why microbial resistance isn't a possibility with hobbyists using antibiotics but it is with food farmers. You will also need to explain to me why you accept treatments developed for food production but not the concerns related to them.

Yeah, it’s a bit of a exaggeration to say you said everyone thinks it’s a huge problem, but in a thread where lasse called people that medicate their fish “sinners” it’s kind of hard to claim that there’s a gold standard here.

That was directed at me, and I have no issue with it. I understand Lasse and what he meant by it. It's Swedish humor, but it was humor. Does he feel his way and recommendations are correct? Absolutely. Do Hotrocks and 4Ford? Absolutely. Not sure why that is a surprise.

You did indicate that pretty much the entire scientific community agrees with you, which they don’t. At least I don’t.

When you become the majority of the scientific community I will consider that statement valid. Until then, I'd like to see something from the scientific community backing your position.