Sump filtration questions

[Kodski]

Hello Everyone,

I have a few questions that I'm hopping the answers can help me plan out my DIY 40B sump for my 93 gal cube build coming up.

I see many people use filter socks, but just as many hate them. I've seen filter floss, roller mats, and other thing thrown out there. I'd love to use a DIY roller mat, but I fear that it will take up too much room in my sump vs a filter sock section. I should note that I'm trying to maximize the size of my refugium. I also plan on pushing 900gph through the sump which many drop in roller mats can't handle. For this reason I'm leaning towards filter socks or filter floss plate of some design.

My first question is, I see some sump drain lines setup to drain directly into the filter sock and some that drain into a little section that overflows into filter socks. What is the benefit of the second? The only benefit I can see is ease of changing filter socks out. I see many manufactured sumps setup this way as well, so I can only assume there are other benefits to having the drain line drain into a small section before the socks themselves.

My second question, I really like the idea of a filter floss plate, but there isn't many pictures of ones out there. Can someone point me into the direction of DIY filter plate designs?

My third question, Is there a roller mat design out there that wouldn't take up a bunch of room in my sump but can still handle around 900 gph through it? I do plan on using a bean animal overflow and having my secondary drain routed directly to my refugium to feed that. So it would see less than 900 gph realistically.

My fourth questons, are there any other options out there besides these options?

 

[Quietman]

The drain line into separate section allows easy filter sock change, but also allows a bit easier design in keeping things quiet. Drain line below water level is much easier quieted down than discharging into filter sock. It can be done, sure - just easier.

See LifeReef sumps for some plate ideas (he hates socks - as I do). Quite honestly, I haven't run them from almost day 1 - no issues. If I clean I may drop some sponge in there for a day or two (that's for the 4th question).

Don't use rollermats - if I don't need a sock, why would I need a roller mat?

 

[Kodski]

The drain line into separate section allows easy filter sock change, but also allows a bit easier design in keeping things quiet. Drain line below water level is much easier quieted down than discharging into filter sock. It can be done, sure - just easier.

See LifeReef sumps for some plate ideas (he hates socks - as I do). Quite honestly, I haven't run them from almost day 1 - no issues. If I clean I may drop some sponge in there for a day or two (that's for the 4th question).

Don't use rollermats - if I don't need a sock, why would I need a roller mat?

Thanks for you reply Quietman!

You bring up some great points I haven't thought about. I will definitely be checking out LifeReef sumps.

As far as not running any mechanical filtration, how do you keep your water polished? Or do you not really have to worry about it even? I love good clear water and that's what I'm after. I'm also sort of a heavy feeder, so that's why I think I'd lean towards having some sort of mechanical filtration in place.

 

[Quietman]

Thanks for you reply Quietman!

You bring up some great points I haven't thought about. I will definitely be checking out LifeReef sumps.

As far as not running any mechanical filtration, how do you keep your water polished? Or do you not really have to worry about it even? I love good clear water and that's what I'm after. I'm also sort of a heavy feeder, so that's why I think I'd lean towards having some sort of mechanical filtration in place.

My water looks pretty dang clear to me. I feed heavily as well. Turn all pumps off, when they come back on stirs it all up for another "feeding" 10 min later...10 min after that...back to crystal clear.

The particle or two I notice appears with or without sock/sponge so no difference.

Like I said though...if I'm cleaning sand bed or algae removal I'll throw a sponge (2" x 24" blue/white rolled up into cone) into the filter cup for a day or two but usually I just have my bag of charcoal and phosguard in there.

 

[Kodski]

My water looks pretty dang clear to me. I feed heavily as well. Turn all pumps off, when they come back on stirs it all up for another "feeding" 10 min later...10 min after that...back to crystal clear.

The particle or two I notice appears with or without sock/sponge so no difference.

Like I said though...if I'm cleaning sand bed or algae removal I'll throw a sponge (2" x 24" blue/white rolled up into cone) into the filter cup for a day or two but usually I just have my bag of charcoal and phosguard in there.

After a quick look through Lifereef sumps, I'm really thinking a section for a sponge would be the most effective, and have the smallest foot print as possible. Plus, like you, I can decide if and when I'll run the sponge to be most effective.

 

[Quietman]

I also think recirculating that food does more good for my corals than removing it quickly reduces nutrients or improves clarity. I carbon dose with skimmer and nutrients aren't an issue at all and like I've said...my tank looks just as clear as others I've seen.

I've never once thought my tank didn't stand up clarity wise to any tanks I've seen.

 

[Quietman]

Lastly...with a sponge/floss...I can spend 20 bucks for 6 months or more and throw them away when I'm done with them. You can't do that cheaply with socks and washing socks ?!? I hate doing my own laundry let own my fish laundry!

 

[JoshH]

Great advice above, I will add I noticed you plan on feeding your Refugium with your secondary drain on your BA setup? This really isn't how they are designed to operate, when you use the secondary as a second siphon you need to use a gate valve to adjust flow. This becomes a choke point for flow and turns your secondary backup into a second primary siphon. This leaves you with one emergency drain which is basically a Herbie Drain. Nothing wrong with that ofcourse but you need to realize it doesn't provide the same redundancy that a BA does.

A better option would be to either A) run your fuge off a T on your main siphon to maintain the BA setup. This will require two gate valves on either side of the T to adjust and direct the flow appropriately. I ran this setup for a couple years and it worked flawlessly, once tuned (Which can be a bit of a pain) it's set and forget.

Or B) feed your Refugium off of your return line or manifold. A lot of people choose this option as it's a bit easier to tune and adjust as needed.

I'll also add that Fiji-Cube sumps come with removable filter floss plates and filter sock plates so they might be worth looking into to atleast get ideas from.

 

[Kodski]

Great advice above, I will add I noticed you plan on feeding your Refugium with your secondary drain on your BA setup? This really isn't how they are designed to operate, when you use the secondary as a second siphon you need to use a gate valve to adjust flow. This becomes a choke point for flow and turns your secondary backup into a second primary siphon. This leaves you with one emergency drain which is basically a Herbie Drain. Nothing wrong with that ofcourse but you need to realize it doesn't provide the same redundancy that a BA does.

A better option would be to either A) run your fuge off a T on your main siphon to maintain the BA setup. This will require two gate valves on either side of the T to adjust and direct the flow appropriately. I ran this setup for a couple years and it worked flawlessly, once tuned (Which can be a bit of a pain) it's set and forget.

Or B) feed your Refugium off of your return line or manifold. A lot of people choose this option as it's a bit easier to tune and adjust as needed.

I'll also add that Fiji-Cube sumps come with removable filter floss plates and filter sock plates so they might be worth looking into to atleast get ideas from.

Let me clarify my drain line setup with saying that it definitely won't be running at full siphon. Just the excess will be diverted to the refugium. My understanding of bean animal setup is that line 1 runs at full siphon or 100% capacity. Your return pump will likely return more than that, lets say 115% of capacity. Since line 1 can only handle 100% line 2 will cover the extra 15%. My plan is to have this extra 15% will drain directly into the refugium. Providing some sort of particulate food for the refugium vs catching everything in mechanical filtration. I hope that is more clear. Though I guess I never though of running the refugium on one side of my sump with the pump in the middle and using a manifold to feed it.

Thank you for posting that Fiji Cube design! I really like that and I can copy that with my 3-D printer. I can even make multiple baskets so I just switch them out if need be!

 

[JoshH]

Let me clarify my drain line setup with saying that it definitely won't be running at full siphon. Just the excess will be diverted to the refugium. My understanding of bean animal setup is that line 1 runs at full siphon or 100% capacity. Your return pump will likely return more than that, lets say 115% of capacity. Since line 1 can only handle 100% line 2 will cover the extra 15%. My plan is to have this extra 15% will drain directly into the refugium. Providing some sort of particulate food for the refugium vs catching everything in mechanical filtration. I hope that is more clear. Though I guess I never though of running the refugium on one side of my sump with the pump in the middle and using a manifold to feed it.

Thank you for posting that Fiji Cube design! I really like that and I can copy that with my 3-D printer. I can even make multiple baskets so I just switch them out if need be!

So you're understanding of a BA drain may be slightly off, true the main line runs at a full siphon (Which really just means there is no air being drawn into the line with the flow) but by no means does it typically run at 100% of the pipes capacity. Standard setup is the main siphon line has a valve (Typically a gate valve) that you use to tune the siphon to prevent air from being drawn into the line. This would mean say 95-99% of the flow will run down the main siphon and 1-5% will run down the secondary. The purpose of this is so of your primary siphon gets 100% clogged, the secondary can handle the entire amount of flow when it reaches full siphon. The emergency drain is only there incase BOTH the primary and secondary get clogged and otherwise remains completely dry. Your return pumps flow should never exceed the capacity of any one pipe in your overflow setup.

If all 3 drains are of equal size and in your case your primary and secondary drains clog, your emergency drain will not be able to handle the flow because you're flowing 115% of it's flow capacity. And this will lead to your DT potentially overflowing.

As I said, you can totally run it this way however it's no longer a BA drain setup and if your other drains get clogged (However unlikely), your emergency won't be able to handle the flow.

And any time! I think they are pretty nice sumps and the swappable filter options could come in real handy for you. 3D printing should be easy enough to do and you can make in whatever size that will suit you best.

 

[Kodski]

So you're understanding of a BA drain may be slightly off, true the main line runs at a full siphon (Which really just means there is no air being drawn into the line with the flow) but by no means does it typically run at 100% of the pipes capacity. Standard setup is the main siphon line has a valve (Typically a gate valve) that you use to tune the siphon to prevent air from being drawn into the line. This would mean say 95-99% of the flow will run down the main siphon and 1-5% will run down the secondary. The purpose of this is so of your primary siphon gets 100% clogged, the secondary can handle the entire amount of flow when it reaches full siphon. The emergency drain is only there incase BOTH the primary and secondary get clogged and otherwise remains completely dry. Your return pumps flow should never exceed the capacity of any one pipe in your overflow setup.

Yes! this is what I was trying to explain, I just did it in a very bad way. I promise I have run a bean animal setup before! lol Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me clearly!