Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

[brandon429]

Neon wow you packed a lot of observation into this experiment. I thank you heartily and can’t wait for updates ! I did not know that nitrite data was available from those sources I truly thought only api had nitrite data, someone mentioned Red Sea did too the other day. The ability to compare multiple kits on one sample is rare rare rare



what Im finding fascinating is that with merely water and surface area added, the trend towards controlling ammonia really does start without all the boosters we once thought were required. Those rascals who wrote cycling charts, meant for freshwater, may have been writing for us too the whole time. I plan to read up soon / search out the origins of the common cycling chart we have seen in books and in online posts am mainly curious how far that knowledge goes back.


@DSC reef

any new findings we can consider?
You had laugh emojis on page one, but we didn't see any follow up work.

based on observations here it seems the only time ammonia will fail to control in a post cycle reef is when something kills all the fish at once. The initial cause of that event won’t be free ammonia, nh3 spikes will follow the event that took several fish at once.

Here is another false alert post we cleared using updated cycling science
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-spike-please-help.849935/#post-9234802

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

The fun thing is I accidentally bought another 3 pack of slides so already planning my next two experiments....

To be fair, I am certain that if I repeated this experiment with biospira that the "tank" would already be capable of processing 2 ppm ammonia. Based on adds it is just finishing out processing the remaining 1.5 ppm ammonia I had added since day 0. It has been slow starting but if on day 30 I can dose .5 ppm and it is processed in 24 hours I would consider that cycled for 90% of reefers. If I was a betting man I would say that using the new rules.. (eh my defenition of cycled atleast) for a tank to be able to process .5 ppm in 24 hours it will likely take about 30-40 days without bacteria.

 

[brandon429]

NeonRabbit221B that is noted. On future rants I will include that date as a reference to you. It’s darn close to what cycle chart writers found to be recurring themes as well

I have not seen that date tested until now. Really nice work


friends in the chemistry forum shored this one up, fast:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detected-ammonia-in-established-tank.843896/#post-9149633

that’s exceptional. See how there is no doubt about control, merely off description? No actual testing is required to know about the ammonia levels in that reef, its age and described status is all we need to know.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Some chat with tech support...
For the pH sensor, I have yet to personally see the common dinural swing one would see with a probe type sensor. Is this just due to the reaction time of the sensor? Is it better to see this value as an weighted time average...?
We would expect a heavily planted tank to show a natural pH cycle that is linked to the lighting period in the aquarium and photosynthetic activity. However, even if you take into account the temperature diurnal swing this does not necessarily mean the pH will change drastically, in a natural environment we would expect to see very little pH changes.


I have noticed that some users find that the accuracy of the pH sensor drifts around week 2. Oddly, right now I am running a cycling experiment and my pH has not drifted as it has in the past in my actual tank. I think this is likely due to a lack of organics or detritus in my bucket setup. Any comment or tips if a user starts to notice a downward drift?
If a user starts to notice a downwards drift the first step we recommend is to visually inspect the slide itself, the pH sensor pad changes colour in the water depending on the pH of the water, so regardless of what the seneye electronic reading device is displaying we can tell if the device is in a low of high pH because of the colour response of the slide. If the slide is in a low pH it will be yellow and if it is in a high pH (9) it will turn blue with an olive green indicating mid 8pH.



Do you as a company have any lab or high accuracy benchmarking data to backup the ammonia readings? I have found that it is usually close to what I get out of a free ammonia calculator but anything concrete would put tons of reefers at ease!

The chemical sensor pad for Nh3 (in the clear case) also changes colour once wet depending on the pH and Nh3 of the water and the device displays a reading according to the raw data values. We cannot share our calibration procedure but for more information on the difference between standard tests kits and the device can be found below:

How critical is it to keep the seneye away from light sources? I have heard that bright lighting can damage the slides but not sure if its based on any data. Any data you can share would be great on PAR/exposure

If the device is continually subjected to very bright light this can have an affect on the slides, however, if you are worried about the readings we can physically take a look at the slide itself.

Last one is more open ended… What is the best way to accurately trim the device for ammonia readings? Will trim settings vary between slides? Any useful tips?

It does seem unusual that the pH readings are not moving at all when we looked at the data therefore, please, can you send in a picture of your slide again so we can see both sides of the sensor pads on a plain white background in natural light and we can then ***** the slide colouration against the data.

In regards to trimming the device readings, we would highly recommend not trimming the Nh3 readings at all because this is the toxic form of ammonia the readings will not display accurately if they have been trimmed.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Also, my ammonia is stuck at .02 ish for the last 5 days which I find abnormal. Having doubts but maybe I can send some pictures in and get some feedback on if my meter is reading correctly.

 

[brandon429]

Your questions aimed at getting the pattern input we need: 10/10

wow, just perfect

their responses: 2/10 I’m sure you felt a little let down possibly


you asked exactly what I’d want to know

who cares what a planted tank does lol we r reefing here/ they seemed to skirt around indication of the diurnal changes reefs face, but are harder to track bc they’re less pronounced than low alk planted tanks.

it’s official: we need a cage match between Hach lab nh3 meter and a seneye that shows the tuned dynamics we expect for running reef tanks. There is no other benchmark for actual water reads other than mating these top two kits on a given sample. NeonRabbit thank you very much, continue relaying anything you discover


on the stuck .02 is that test cycling tank, or running reef tank matured

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Test cycling tank. Previously it was able to get into the thousandths so might have an issue there. I will do a final dose of ammonia tonight to see what % reduction I see in 24 hours then I am out for vacation this weekend.

 

[brandon429]

Have well earned fun on vaca and thank you for the study, very valuable


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-nitrites-and-ammonia-are-high.849404/here is a post that was purchase-intercepted. no form of cycling help was needed, and no elevated ammonia issues were in play. we fixed the concern by stopping the testing of ammonia and nitrite, no actual changes were made to the tank since the day it was mentioned in the alert title.

key details matching every other link in this thread:

-the title is a remark on a test kit reading, and not any other single factor. The reading is never from a digital nh3 measurement device. That's the #1 recurring theme on all these eventual hundred pages of examples of false ammonia alerts. No losses are reported, only a test kit makes the report among perfectly balanced reef pics.

-pics always go against the test kit fear. He's got perfectly normal reef ratios of rocks and sand and dilution and bioload. his water is laser clear and no losses are in play to have an ammonia concern anyway. the point of this thread is to track proofs and outcomes for tanks like those above.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Alright final report out
Temp 77.8 Salinity 1.019 pH 8.1
Dosed 1 ppm with Seneye reporting a start free ammonia of .022 ppm at 4:30 pm
At 5 pm it was reading .062 (using free ammonia calculator just about on par for 1 ppm)
Today at 5 pm it was reading .49 (about .82 ppm total)
20.1% reduction in free ammonia

I would say a 30 day dry rock cycle per the goal of processing .25 ppm ammonia in 24 hours is feasible (this is based on protein content of my fish food and the amount I feed) but certainly not a full .5 ppm.

I do question the fact that prior to the last addition I sat at .02 ppm free ammonia without a decline for about 3 days. I am certainly not on board with the idea that Seneye is perfect or error free. The advice from support to not trim was bothersome as I couldn't even get close to the readings using a calculator on my first slide. At some point I will make my own thread for future experiments.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

@brandon429 ...thoughts?

Here is something... If a seneye reads free ammonia which is impacted by temperature then if I dose x amount of ammonia at room temperature and then put a heater in it then it should raise the reading correct? I have not seen a change with temperature which is concerning...

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

New slide so did some made some data for testing... Fuzzy on my statistics but I know I can use regression to find a more accurate trim...
Use calibrated equipment for temp, ph and salinity. Made a solution for ammonia for accurate dosing.

The problem is the trim value is set by one number and if I use a low dosage/ppm to trim then error changes once ammonia levels rise.

 

[brandon429]

nice data, still reading it now for patterns to stand out, well done for sure

hey above are you meaning pH regulation of free ammonia? from what Ive read from Randy and Dan/Taricha its not temp modulated but tightly pH modulated/the nh3 value

so if you can set up a known dilution of free ammonia using common reef water mix/any common reef pH it should be a reliable benchmark for nh3 and it wont be in nh4 form, friend Dan P let me know in chat thats my best summary of his dilution idea for checking a seneye. then your seneye should be able to pick it up and we can benchmark hopefully


*I thought your finding of clearing out half a ppm and for sure not a full 2 really makes sense, these are the barest bacterial assemblies vs that concentrated bottle bac common run, that really does make sense. its very sparse active biolayer from an unassisted wait, but, we amplify that with the excess surface area we all employ and its positioning: smack dab in the middle of the waste production zone, not off to the side through pipes

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

pH being measured by Seneye is independent of the free ammonia reading. I used a calibrated probe from my tank to derive expected free ammonia readings. I can say it does drastically change the readout. I assume most of my error is either the device or the pH readings used to derive the free ammonia levels. Don't have several testing methods for pH so can't rule that one out.

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-through-the-roof-need-help-asap.854415/

even before we get any feedback at all, this reef does not have a true ammonia spike. see its opening pics.

our thread exists to alleviate concern in posts like those. bottle bac sellers will not train us on the truth they'll train to make a purchase and we need to work against that market pressure with free science examples.

we are about to ignore ammonia there for the next 3 months straight, let's track outcomes in three months. that's a fine reef, worth probably five grand or more those corals are massive. there's a lot of life on the line there, ammonia science is consequential.

things crash and die if our science of inherent control in all reefs, post cycle, is bad.


and if our science is good, that means bottle bac sellers have some explaining to do for not telling us about the natural ammonia control in all reefs past day 15, about fifteen years ago.

 

[brandon429]

Look at the pics on page 2

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-8ppm.866079/page-2This is a massive misread thread


There's nothing wrong with the filter at all but the system is being pumped full of multiple additives.

Every counter move made there is specifically in reaction to misreading the test


There's nothing wrong with the reef look how tough they are to endure all those doses

 

[brandon429]

Peers fully believe filter bac are dead or overcame here

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...-ppm-after-aquariam-move.887744/#post-9824356


let’s see how the predicted pics line up with our running work thread


test levels reported: nh4, from api, the worlds most reliable test kit



team do you see how in 100%, not 99% of cases we are trained for fear and lack of bacteria


by peers

this is a sustained ammonia non clearing post, what would seneye show? (Asking a seneye owner out there)


we are on page six of tracking false ammonia stall posts. What’s page ten going to look like


seneye owners: have you ever seen a non control event in your system *after* the seneye was up, running and slides were calibrated and trimmed? No. Only red sea and api testers learn this fear, not seneye owners. Bottle bac sellers depend on this fear to continue, see how bacteria was sold there from the fear? This whole time the reading is correct, as it should be for a post cycle reef.


this thread is for cycling umpires, so their responses align with known patterns and cycling charts when they respond to help posts.

removing a sandbed didn’t cause a cycle. Here’s fifty pages of removing sandbeds and no cycle, no bottle bac

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/official-sand-rinse-and-tank-transfer-thread.230281/

the tank above here had a fish kill due to a bad move but there isn’t a sustained ammonia spike days after. Not for anyone


once we get pics, I bet those pics look like the other pics we’ve been collecting here: clean water, plenty of surface area, plenty of dilution and other animals indicating no problem + matured live rocks hungry to uptake free ammonia the second it’s added.

the issue is the reported api test, that’s the repeating variable we study here.

 

[brandon429]

is anyone being tricked ad infinitum by their interpretation of non digital ammonia readings? post up so we get more work examples. 100% of the collected examples in this thread were perfectly within ammonia control specs, and not a single tank had issues controlling ammonia: click on anyone included here and read about their tank updates until today...let me know of any tank that proved it's ammonia was out of control as originally reported. = 0%

your biofilter is the most locked-in, not-going-anywhere facet of your entire reef tank so don't automatically jump to doubting it at every whim in the common display tank, which is what we've been working here for a long time now in pattern. your filter bacteria were the first to come, and will be the last to go when you take down your reef; you need not ever concern about them in a display tank and to this day after 20+ years of logging online troubleshoots I have yet to see a single display reef not using enough surface area: your ammonia control bases are covered, right from the start. We aren't dealing in occasional outliers, we're dealing in total compliance if you're reading this to learn about the reliability of display reef tanks and inherent ammonia control. Losing even one or two fish will not overtake your ammonia command; it will be a complete wipeout required (any seneye owner who has tracked a lost fish agrees and can relay the patterns of inherent ammonia control in a reef tank)

I've been seeing lots of scary ammonia reading posts (which are false alarms) and I've sent them this link to read of other's fear and outcome patterns once we look through the lens of updated cycling science.

post your new and scary challenges here, and we'll work them by chat. the opening post from me to you will be: you do not have a cycling issue whatsoever-it's why your tank looks so great day to day and all animals are bright and happy.

there is one cause for ammonia noncontrol in a display tank reef: all the fish died and you were gone, leaving them all to rot in place. Did that happen in any links posted, or about to be posted?

 

[talal reefer]

after u posted in my thread i started reserching and in the middle of research i found this post thanks for the help
i already bought bac bottles becuase of my api resault and put them in the tank and if i didnt get the replies i got today i was going to buy tomorrow too u saved me some money thanks :)

 

[brandon429]

Talal Reefer thank you for posting nice to meet you

I wanted to post the reading you updated in the other thread here because it shows a neat fact:

your reading would be considered the lowest on this entire thread!

I know that in person you’re seeing not quite zero, a .25

And as you can see in our thread here, we get Red Sea readings far darker than your kit above and we still deem those tanks safe and ready (and most of the tank owners here don’t believe me lol but we can also go track the entire post history from any example here going back two years and see they indeed were cycled the entire time, 100% of all tanks here lived as we said they would)



so you might wonder why would I just tell everyone posting here that their ammonia is fine and to ignore the kit?? It looks like I’m saying just every tank in reefing is done cycling and nobody is mid cycle


well…
it is just indeed about that way :)
because we as a hobby are either using live rock which already has its bacteria in place, or we are all using bottle bacteria which tests out with the ability to handle ammonia on day 1.



ammonia does not take weeks to cycle any owner of a digital nh3 meter knows. Ammonia control establishment happens in hours, not weeks (because cycling bottle bac and live rock are immediate ammonia scrubbers) and only digital kits make this cycling fact clear.

Threads exist from both Jon Malkerson and Dr. Reef where extensive testing of bottle bac is done on seneye measuring the quickness of common cycling bottle bac—cycling bottle bac is very able as soon as it’s added.


the non digital ammonia kits have such a range of possible readings for levels digital kits would show as .001-.006 ppm nh3 that we find non digital kits more of a distraction than a help in reefing.



I didn’t want to post this super long info in your nice thread of shocking nice corals so thank you for posting here. I’m also including a pic of your wonderful reef tank so we can keep the pattern of tank pic + ammonia reading contrasted to health of all animals

your reef is only 13 days old yet it’s carrying the most sensitive life in reefing, because of the power of bottle bac on day one.


that’s a lot of life to pack into a 2 week old tank, my respect on fine cycle controls here. The reason you can stop testing for ammonia is it cannot go out of spec unless a group of fish die for reasons having nothing to do with ammonia. Your cycling bottle bac adhered to all tank surfaces by day 14, that’s locked in now.

all large reefs like this can handle the occasional fish loss left inside the tank too, these tanks have room for shock absorber work there’s no condition your tank will encounter where ammonia control will be in doubt. if disease ever kills a group of fish just remove them if they were in the tank a while and the ammonia will balance out automatically in about one hour.


You can literally retire the kit and just focus on quality fish feeding and really clean water to keep fish happy.

 

[brandon429]

Watch for assessment trending in cycling posts: is always dead bacteria. Any problem you post regarding ammonia in a cycling tank or running tank: dead bacteria.

Anytime ammonia says noncompliant on a non digital test kit everyone agrees are notorious for misreads, we divert to dead bottle bac

Or in this thread, dead tank bacteria that used to be alive

Always water bacteria unable to set up shop in water.

It can't be just a misreading cheap test kit reported to us as nh4 guess vs an accurate digital nh3 measure... it's always gotta be dead bacteria in some way...


Team
You are not encountering dead bacteria in water any more often than you're encountering a dead bird flying through the air.


use the indirect markers we use here to assess ammonia control when your cheap test kits cause you pause

Are you fifteen days past a bottle bac cycle and still thinking you're stalled? You're not, that's a non digital test kit + old cycling rules misleading you. Your animals are fine - because - you're cycled, they'd be dead if you weren't.


Bumped because a rash of failed cycle posts are active and they're all false misreads.