Tang spinning in circles in QT, possible ammonia burn?

[wamy2004]

Sorry ahead of time, this is a bit long winded...

We started a 20 gal QT tank 6 days ago. Using a HOB filter with no carbon - we just put in some filter floss to help with nori debris. Air stone and heater. Slowly getting copper to 2.25. I try to stay within 2.0-2.5. We were doing full water changes every 24 hours to control ammonia. I just learned watching Humblefish that Red Sea Ammonia tests are not reliable while treating with Copper Power....so now I'm not sure how high our ammonia really is. I ordered Hannah and waiting for that to come in. But it gets to a color between .80 and 1.2 on the Red Sea chart by the time we do a water change.

I'm starting to do water changes now everyday. I also started adding Prime to make sure it stays safe. We were using Cupermine when we first started to QT fish and knew we couldn't use Prime, we just discovered it's safe to use when using Copper Power...so that will help.

We have a royal gramma, fairy wrasse, and 4 anthias along with the bristle tooth. We have taken the bristle tooth out right now and he is in a 30 gal brute with an air stone, heater and circulation to at least get him isolated. We are debating on trying the hybrid TTM now as well, just trying to find the right course of action. The bristle tooth, royal gramma wrasse and a few of the anthers all started to show spots day 2 and 3. They are all now gone...not sure if it was ich or velvet or what, but so far that has cleared. One of the anthias has developed a sore that I think might be Uronema, not sure yet. We are also adding Nirtofurazone.

So, first, what could be wrong with our Bristletooth? Ammonia burn, not handling copper? Can he come back from this? I have also ordered Methylene Blue that will be here tomorrow.

Second, is it best to divide the fish up in to more QT tanks and do the TTM method?


Anything else, medicine wise, worth purchasing to have on hand for the future? I hate having something come up and then I can't treat them right away because I have to order something.

Thank you for any help. We learned the hard way to use caution on who to take advice from and didn't QT in the beginning. Ended up with velvet and nearly wiped out our entire tank.

Bristletooth Tang Possible Ammonia Burn in QT

www.youtube.com

 

[MnFish1]

1. The tang is in terrible shape (but not the rest of the fish) - suggesting that its perhaps only that fish thats affected.
2. It seems like a neurologic injury - possibly during shipping - or more likely (depending) - a quick change in salinity
3. I would stop fiddling with the fish (and I'm not using that as a disparaging comment) - leave it isolated - and watch. Did you happen to know the salinity of the tank you got it from as compared to yours?
4. You're doing a lot of things - you don't need to add prime. If you're doing water changes. If this was ammonia - it would affect everything. Adding prime will guarantee you will keep getting high ammonia levels. If you are doing daily water changes (don't know the percent) - its unlikely that ammonia will build up to toxic levels.
5. Could this be a copper issue - Doubt (meaning an overdose). The fish has no evidence of velvet or ich (that I can see).
6. This looks similar to 'whirling disease' - Myxosporea - but - that would be odd in a reef fish.


Bottom line - agree - keep it isolated,

 

[MnFish1]

PS - to further answer your specific question
1. Don't purchase anything.
2. Don't do hybrid TTM
3. Don't add methylene blue - unless there is an indication to do so?
Hope this helps. !!!!! I'm sure more answers will be coming

 

[KrisReef]

QT is home veterinary hospital , not an easy task for most people, and impossible with out advanced adequate preparations.

The tang would have made me cry if I had any emotional energy to support that reaction. Please follow the experts on here

 

[wamy2004]

1. The tang is in terrible shape (but not the rest of the fish) - suggesting that its perhaps only that fish thats affected.
2. It seems like a neurologic injury - possibly during shipping - or more likely (depending) - a quick change in salinity
3. I would stop fiddling with the fish (and I'm not using that as a disparaging comment) - leave it isolated - and watch. Did you happen to know the salinity of the tank you got it from as compared to yours?
4. You're doing a lot of things - you don't need to add prime. If you're doing water changes. If this was ammonia - it would affect everything. Adding prime will guarantee you will keep getting high ammonia levels. If you are doing daily water changes (don't know the percent) - its unlikely that ammonia will build up to toxic levels.
5. Could this be a copper issue - Doubt (meaning an overdose). The fish has no evidence of velvet or ich (that I can see).
6. This looks similar to 'whirling disease' - Myxosporea - but - that would be odd in a reef fish.


Bottom line - agree - keep it isolated,

Thank you so much.

It does seem that all other fish are not showing any signs of distress. Every now and then he starts swimming normal, maybe 20-30 seconds tries to nibble on nori and then starts twirling again. Hoping for the best and that time will play out in our favor...

It was fine the first 4 days we had it. Bought it from the LFS. We did check salinity as we do with all new additions. It was at 1.026, we did a drip acclimation for 30 minutes and then he went in. I keep ours at 1.025.

We have a 20 gal tank with the rest of the fish and are doing 90% water changes, we get it as low as possible and then refill.

What is considered to be toxic for ammonia that would warrant an emergency water change? While
I have to wait for my Hanna tester to come I only had the Red Sea which put it around 1ppm. I know it isn't accurate, wasn't sure if it tends to read low or high when using copper though.

 

[wamy2004]

QT is home veterinary hospital , not an easy task for most people, and impossible with out advanced adequate preparations.

The tang would have made me cry if I had any emotional energy to support that reaction. Please follow the experts on here

I'm trying as best as I can, as I learn. I have been following a lot of highly recommended people but have just signed up today for R2R. Where did I go wrong on properly QT new fish?

I drip acclimated them. Had a 20 gal tank set up with some PVC, heater, HOB filter with no media and air stone. I slowly added copper power to a therapeutic level while also adding nitrofurazone. I am monitoring ammonia and do full water changes, or at least as low as i can every other day. This worked in the past for us and never had problems. Please share where I should make any changes.

 

[wamy2004]

PS - to further answer your specific question
1. Don't purchase anything.
2. Don't do hybrid TTM
3. Don't add methylene blue - unless there is an indication to do so?
Hope this helps. !!!!! I'm sure more answers will be coming

Thank you for all your help. For now I will continue to do water changes and monitor.

 

[MnFish1]

Fish Swimming in Circles: 10 Reasons

Maybe you’ve noticed your fish swim in circular motions. Is it normal? Is this something you should worry about? It is not uncommon for fish to cruise in circles. There could be many different causes

www.acaquarium.com

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry ahead of time, this is a bit long winded...

We started a 20 gal QT tank 6 days ago. Using a HOB filter with no carbon - we just put in some filter floss to help with nori debris. Air stone and heater. Slowly getting copper to 2.25. I try to stay within 2.0-2.5. We were doing full water changes every 24 hours to control ammonia. I just learned watching Humblefish that Red Sea Ammonia tests are not reliable while treating with Copper Power....so now I'm not sure how high our ammonia really is. I ordered Hannah and waiting for that to come in. But it gets to a color between .80 and 1.2 on the Red Sea chart by the time we do a water change.

I'm starting to do water changes now everyday. I also started adding Prime to make sure it stays safe. We were using Cupermine when we first started to QT fish and knew we couldn't use Prime, we just discovered it's safe to use when using Copper Power...so that will help.

We have a royal gramma, fairy wrasse, and 4 anthias along with the bristle tooth. We have taken the bristle tooth out right now and he is in a 30 gal brute with an air stone, heater and circulation to at least get him isolated. We are debating on trying the hybrid TTM now as well, just trying to find the right course of action. The bristle tooth, royal gramma wrasse and a few of the anthers all started to show spots day 2 and 3. They are all now gone...not sure if it was ich or velvet or what, but so far that has cleared. One of the anthias has developed a sore that I think might be Uronema, not sure yet. We are also adding Nirtofurazone.

So, first, what could be wrong with our Bristletooth? Ammonia burn, not handling copper? Can he come back from this? I have also ordered Methylene Blue that will be here tomorrow.

Second, is it best to divide the fish up in to more QT tanks and do the TTM method?


Anything else, medicine wise, worth purchasing to have on hand for the future? I hate having something come up and then I can't treat them right away because I have to order something.

Thank you for any help. We learned the hard way to use caution on who to take advice from and didn't QT in the beginning. Ended up with velvet and nearly wiped out our entire tank.

Bristletooth Tang Possible Ammonia Burn in QT

www.youtube.com

This fish for a Tomini tang is very thin and cant imagine it has eaten for some time or was fed inadequate diet causing it to weaken and is now at the point of being moribund. There is no steps or meds that helps a fish in this weakened condition and chances of recovery are likely thin.
Wish better news could be offered.
I rule out neurological. As for copper, you are better off with these fish with use of coppersafe or copper power which is not as Harsh being an ionic form of copper. Since you have cupramine, get to therapeutic level .5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
Ramping up is not recommended. Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible.

 

[wamy2004]

This fish for a Tomini tang is very thin and cant imagine it has eaten for some time or was fed inadequate diet causing it to weaken and is now at the point of being moribund. There is no steps or meds that helps a fish in this weakened condition and chances of recovery are likely thin.
Wish better news could be offered.

We did notice it was thin when we got it home last weekend. It was picking at nori and would go after some frozen, but not nearly what it should have. We should have looked better at the LFS.

 

[MnFish1]

This fish for a Tomini tang is very thin and cant imagine it has eaten for some time or was fed inadequate diet causing it to weaken and is now at the point of being moribund. There is no steps or meds that helps a fish in this weakened condition and chances of recovery are likely thin.
Wish better news could be offered.
I rule out neurological. As for copper, you are better off with these fish with use of coppersafe or copper power which is not as Harsh being an ionic form of copper. Since you have cupramine, get to therapeutic level .5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
Ramping up is not recommended. Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. Add partial doses and get to the full treatment level as soon as possible.

LOL - it's a neurologic syndrome IMHO - you cannot rule out neurologic. The fact the other fish are fine is a tell

 

[vetteguy53081]

LOL - it's a neurologic syndrome IMHO - you cannot rule out neurologic. The fact the other fish are fine is a tell

This fish is weak and starving. Not sure how you would arrive at neurological.

 

[MnFish1]

This fish is weak and starving. Not sure how you would arrive at neurological.

The way it's swimming. Starving fish IMHO - do not swim that way.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for all your help. For now I will continue to do water changes and monitor.

Each test has its own alert/alarm values. There are multiple calculators online that can help determine the free NH3 levels (which are the important levels) - I would use (unless you have a method to measure free NH3 (a Seneye or a seachem alert badge) - the total ammonia - in conjunction with an online calculator. https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to see your tang. It is pretty thin and is actively dying.

I think Humblefish was referring to the issue where dosing copper power gives a positive ammonia reading because it uses ammonia to bind with the copper to make it less toxic. All you need to do is subtract 0.50 ppm from your copper test results to get the actual toxic ammonia level.

I worry that this tank does not have an effective bio filter. You should try adding bacterial cultures like Dr Tims or Fritzyme #9

Jay