Tank just won't stabilize

[vetteguy53081]

Increase intervals for water changes. Also is tank at or near a window?
How are your RODI cartridges? New or expired?
What test kits are you using ?

Cyano has many reasons it gets triggered.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

Add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to help take control.

 

[Reefer_punk]

In case it matters, the tank went through a pretty severe case of dinos early on (maybe ~6 months - 1 year old). But they faded over time, not sure I can attribute it to something I did.

If you aren't running uv, silicate could contribute to overcome dino. But from there it is a restart. Take your time and don't do too much at a time. Adjust one thing at a time and take your time to assess it before you go to the next thing

 

[themericks]

@vetteguy53081 Tank is not near a window. I test my RODI water with a TDS meter once every few water changes, and if it shows more than 0 I replace cartridges with new ones. Test kits are listed in a previous post on page 1, mainly red sea and hanna and one salifert. Thanks for the suggestions. I don't see any smoking guns there for my tank (apart from maybe the overfeeding, as mentioned before), but I'll pay attention.

Earlier on in the tank life (~1 year ago), I did have the flow set a little lower. I progressively upped it, and now I'm at the point where if I increase anymore it'll start bothering corals.

 

[JCM]

Yeah about so, most of them graze the reef for pods or algae, or other critters all day.

That's surprising. I guess my fish do too, but I'd feel like I'm starving them. I only have half the fish you do but they can knock out a whole cube in 90 seconds.

 

[Spare time]

Just get the nitrate up to at least 5ppm and go from there. Keep it bwteen 5-20ppm, and phosphate between 0.03-0.01ppm (0.05 is a nice safe number, where as 0.03 is bordering test kits' error range meaning you could have 0.00). If the cyano keeps getting persistant, do chemiclean. If you don't want to do chemiclean (some people are oddly afraid of it), then keep those numbers up but dose something like pns probio on the side. I can't say dosing possible competition would help, but it won't hurt if you keep the numbers in the right range. Cyano doesn't need nitrogen from the water column like many other creatures, as they can get it from the atmosphere, hence why it may be that cyano often appears in 0 nitrate tanks (or those with low nitrogen input)


You should see algae growing on the glass. That is normal and healthy for a tank. A tank that can't grow algae can't grow coral.

 

[undermind]

Nice tank! I think you've got a nice setup and have a good routine, and have made smart choices along the way.

The fact that you've got your params pretty on point and your routine is pretty solid is probably the reason people are searching for something obvious to tell you to change, but they don't find it, so they grab onto whatever little thing looks a little different from what would be textbook perfect, or exactly how they run their tank. And I think we see the result of that with so much of the advice being in conflict (feed more! feed less!)

My fear is chasing random pieces of advice to increase one thing or decrease another, when the title of the thread is literally "Tank just won't stabilize".

To me, your tank feels like a classic example of a tank that's started with dry rock and dead sand. You're seeing all the classic stuff that tanks started with live rock just don't see. I have 2 tanks that were started at similar times, one with dry rock and dead sand, and the other with 100% live rock. Your tank is just like my dry rock tank was at the 2 year mark. Adding actual live rock made that tank turn the corner but it took a lot of injection of microbiome (beyond bacs in a bottle) to get there.

If it's my turn to offer advice, I'd say add additional beneficial bacteria through live rock or critters that are actually from the ocean. We need this stuff in the tank and it can not get there unless we add it. And I'm not talking about nitrifying bacteria. I know you added the Aquabiomics rubble and that's great but I don't think that's enough.

Then for smaller comments / tweaks / questions...

• It seems a little curious that you get zero PO4 consistently, then random spikes up to 0.1. That's a big swing for a tank with consistently low/no nutrients. Can you think of a cause for that?
• The weekly siphoning of the sand is probably too aggressive. I'd say do it if you've currently got cyano or dinos as a form of manual removal, but relax that if you don't.
• I would think of shifting focus of importance off of whether you're getting an algae film on the glass and onto maintaining detectable NO3 & PO4.

 

[themericks]

@undermind Thanks, great points, and very helpful to hear that this can happen with tanks started from all dry rock. I remember seeing a video by Sanjay Joshi where he tells a very similar story. Would you be concerned about introducing some sort of fish/coral disease or parasite by adding ocean live rock? I was considering adding some a while back, and this was the main reason I held off and ordered the Aquabiomics rubble as a compromise.

I am also suprised at the P04 swings. The only reason I can think of is that they could be tied to my sudden siphoning of the sandbed and glass, possibly polluting the water column temporarily. I'll try to test this next time I do a water change.

Would you favor trying to increase/maintain NO3 and PO4 through increased feeding or dosing?

 

[T-J]

Have you sent off a sample of your tank water and RODI for an ICP test?
FYI, even with 0 TDS, you can still be adding silicates into the tank via your RODI water. Only my ICP test shows when my RODI is exhausted because I'll start seeing silicates on the ICP test. Now I know not to let my DI resin get completely exhausted before replacing it.

Honestly, your tank doesn't look that bad.

 

[undermind]

Would you be concerned about introducing some sort of fish/coral disease or parasite by adding ocean live rock? I was considering adding some a while back, and this was the main reason I held off and ordered the Aquabiomics rubble as a compromise.

Nope. I fear a life of dealing with dinos / cyano / GHA / etc far more than any pathogen or critter from the ocean. And the amount of time we've been using dry rock and dead sand is massively dwarfed by the decades and decades that live rock was effectively the only rock we used.

Re: Aquabiomics rubble, you know that's straight up live rock too, right? I'm assuming you're saying the reason you chose that is because it's tested and confirmed free of pathogens? I'm a huge fan of their rubble. I'm actually on their waiting list for more right now. But you just need a lot more of it than a pint jar of it. I get that they say that it seeds 40g (if my memory serves me correctly) but there are lots of factors in play and if that's your sole source of "live" rock or sand, it just isn't enough IMO.

KP Aquatics is my top choice for boosting biological diversity. It's the best thing we have available right now, hands down. I know there are occasional instances of LFS's getting some black market style tropical live rock from time to time, and I know there is other "gulf" rock available, but KP is sourced from different waters and isn't generally associated with as many of the "badder" critters and aiptasia and stuff as the others.

I am also suprised at the P04 swings. The only reason I can think of is that they could be tied to my sudden siphoning of the sandbed and glass, possibly polluting the water column temporarily. I'll try to test this next time I do a water change.

I wondered the exact same thing. I bet you're right. But hey – maybe don't think about it as "polluting" the water column. It may be adding needed nutrients to the water column. As an experiment, try randomly stirring the sandbed (just a portion – enough to make a small cloud) and see if the corals respond positively. My bet is that they will. It's not always great for every tank, but it's probably great for many. They say fish poop feeds the corals. And you stirring the sand puts the fish poop in the water column.

Would you favor trying to increase/maintain NO3 and PO4 through increased feeding or dosing?

Yes. But take it slow. If for example, you stopped siphoning your sandbed, this could result in a slight available nutrient shift. You could start there and watch that for awhile, while making no other changes.

Alternatively, you could do the above while stirring a small portion of the sandbed on occasion.

If the above don't show any difference in detectable nutrients in a month, you could try feeding a little more. The idea is to go really slow and change one thing at a time. If you're throwing too many things at the wall, you won't know what worked when things get better. You may think who cares what worked as long as it worked, but what if something gets worse? Or what if you encounter the same issue a year from now and need to address it. It will be in those cases that you will wish you knew what worked.

 

[Shooter6]

My suggestion would be get the reefbrite liverock enhance and start dosing it. Also start adding both pods and live phytoplankton. Add pods monthly and small doses of phytoplankton at least 2 times a week. As you dose the liverock enhance, also dose the phosphate and nitrate.
Your benificial bacteria probably didn't get established and that is why your having issues.

Film algae on glass is normal so don't fret about it. That's a normal maintenance job. May need to up you lights intensity a bit to increase the par. Also mat need to dose some cheato grow to add iron in for the refugeum algae.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Film on your glass (white is lack of po4, green is too much no3 in my experience) is something that goes witch it when you are balancing on the low.

Good to know as I had white film and po4 bottomed out. Mostly get green. even with an uv going. Wish it was no algae.

 

[themericks]

@undermind thanks for the suggestions. Yeah, I just meant that the Aquabiomics rubble was tested for pathogens.

I think I'm going to start by switching from weekly to biweekly water changes without siphoning the sandbed, see where that goes.

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions, I'll try to remember to update with results!

 

[themericks]

Results so far, LOTS of algae and cyano. Stick with it?

 

[Susan Edwards]

Results so far, LOTS of algae and cyano. Stick with it?

Yes! It is worth it. At almost 9 months, my tank is finally stabilizing. Still have some algae but hoping I can get that to go away without treatment now that no3 and po4 are where I want them. Fuge is also going good. Takes time and the willingness to adjust and try something until it works.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Oh, I don't do big water changes. Unless I medicated or treated tank. I do small 1-3 gal awc a couple times a month if needed. Right now ca over 500 and can't get it down so will do some each day. Alk dropping due to precipitation due to high ca. I think it will always be something!

 

[Shooter6]

Oh, I don't do big water changes. Unless I medicated or treated tank. I do small 1-3 gal awc a couple times a month if needed. Right now ca over 500 and can't get it down so will do some each day. Alk dropping due to precipitation due to high ca. I think it will always be something!

A large water change is the best way to stabilize the alk,cal,mag. 2-3 large ones will reset the parameters and stop the precipitation. Precipitation events are hard to stop with dosing alone.

 

[Susan Edwards]

A large water change is the best way to stabilize the alk,cal,mag. 2-3 large ones will reset the parameters and stop the precipitation. Precipitation events are hard to stop with dosing alone.

If I do 3-5 gal a day for a week, that will equal a 20%. I am too nervous to do awc unless I'm home and too hard right now with work to do 1 large one. Will try this for 2 weeks and see if that works. Haven't dosed ca in 2 weeks.

 

[gbru316]

@Reefer_punk, I'm only feeding 0.5 blocks of frozen per day, plus a few small pinches of flake from an autofeeder spread out during the day. Do you still consider that too much?

@Nano sapiens, thanks, that makes sense, and is the general reef-keeping rule I try to follow. Just to be clear, every time I've eased off on nutrient control/water changes/etc (even slowly), there's been a marked increase in cyano/film algae/tank dirtiness to the detriment of coral health. Are you saying to just let that run it's course?

We feed that for about 20 fish and inverts in a 132 gallon. So yeah for me it is a bit much combined with flakes, which often contains a higher po4. Film on your glass (white is lack of po4, green is too much no3 in my experience) is something that goes witch it when you are balancing on the low.

Meanwhile, I feed that much to my 5 fish in my 40 breeder twice a day — in addition to my nightly coral feeds.

po4: 0 (I dose neophos), nitrate 5-10.

Aquaforest probiotic method with 10% weekly water change, 30-40 lbs live rock, 1” sand, marinepure block, and 24/7 skimmer use.

Your bacteria populations will adjust to the nutrients present. If you suddenly start increasing nutrients, it’s going to take some time for the populations to stabilize assuming there are no limiting factors.

have you tried pushing through it?

 

[bruno3047]

Your sandbed is disgusting. I would never let mine get that dirty. When you say you siphon the sandbed, I’m guessing that you only siphon from the very surface of it. Your problem is what’s underneath the surface, all the way down to the glass. Basically, you have a reservoir of crap in your sandbed that’s feeding all your problems. JMHO

 

[themericks]

Your sandbed is disgusting. I would never let mine get that dirty. When you say you siphon the sandbed, I’m guessing that you only siphon from the very surface of it. Your problem is what’s underneath the surface, all the way down to the glass. Basically, you have a reservoir of crap in your sandbed that’s feeding all your problems. JMHO

Thanks, I am aware, that is why I started this thread. When I was siphoning, I was going down to the bottom glass, pulling out a ton of gunk out each time, and the sandbed looked much cleaner. Now that I've stopped siphoning, this is the result after a month.