The fate of my tank…ich after fallow & QT.

[Tamberav]

My boy Zerkon suffered from Nasal hyperkeratosis. They believe it is auto immune related and that diet may help. It basically causes painful fissures/crusts and can cause infections. The problem disappeared on raw which is a much better solution then medications and steroids.

Before and after:

My girl Akira had GERD, loose stools, runny eyes and basically food intolerances even on limited ingredient specialty foods. Completely cleared on raw.

My other guy Leo seems to actually not have health problems lol but he was started on raw at 6 months old.

 

[Paul B]

Lionfish hunter. I don't know where to start. The "experts" on disease you are referring to have not been doing this successfully any where near as long as I have. Try to name one. Virtually none of them have a healthy tank near as long as I do. At fifty years old my tank has not had any communicable disease in decades.

My 5 year old moorish Idol was a record "at the time" and I dove with them many times to learn their secrets. Now I know.

I also dove with almost all the fish I keep to learn about them.
You do not need to take any advice I give. I have nothing to prove.

But I think you should write a book on your practices making sure to show the fish spawning and dying of old age.

 

[Tamberav]

Every fish I have had in pairs spawns even though they were quarantined (although not with meds/copper, they were tank transferred). A pair of clowns, a pair of radiant wrasses, and a pair of filefish.

I think spawning is more about diet and just them being generally healthy.

Oh, I also have a spawning pair of catalina gobies in a cold water tank.

 

[Paul B]

Tamberav. Thats because your fish love you, respect you and you feed them properly.

Tank transfer is a great way to introduce fish and will hardly harm them like long quarantine will.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

LOL. You are correct, all the bacteria in the world would not kill ich. But it will keep the fish immune from most diseases as bacteria control 50% of a fishes immunity. The other 50% is from parasites because you need living parasites to have an immunity from them

Can you name "one " old, "healthy" parasite free tank? Old is not 5 or 10 years as that is not even the life span of a hermit crab.

Healthy tanks are where fish only die of old age. For most fish that is about 12 years or more and any fish that can spawn in a tank are spawning or filling with eggs.

If there are no parasites, the fish have no immunity to them and a fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish just as a Human with no immunity is not healthy. We find them in cancer hospitals all over the place. They are living, but not healthy at all.

A fish only needs immunity to parasites if it comes in contact with said parasites. This is a fact, not up for debate. So, keep the parasites out and they do not need imunity from them. I can’t name one tank that is parasite free over 10 years old, I also can’t name one tank that is 10 years old with parasites. Not sure what that means, but there are multiple 20 year old tangs and I am willing to bet 90% live parasite free. There is absolutely no good reason to have immunity to something you won’t encounter. Also nobody you’re giving advice to have these 50 year old tanks, and ich will destroy their tanks. Keep ich out and boom, no need to keep a tank for 50 years. I apologize of I seem rude at times, not my intention. I have seen the devastation parasites cause over the past 20 years. And there may be old tanks with fish that have decades of immunity. But that is not what 99 percent of people have, and keeping parasites out is very important for most tanks. People need to know that.

Also on a separate topic, I have read the moorish idol forum. You believe that we are missing something because they do not live more than 5 years. I think it is just as likely they have a short lifespan. Who is to say they only have a 3 to 5 year lifespan? I have found nothing saying they are known to have a longer lifespan in the wild. You say tangs can live decades, but this is not a tang. It is in a class of its own, the only species in its genus. Just a thought. Also there are probably 100 to 1 ratio of yellow tangs to moorish idols in aquariums. Probably more like 300 to 1. Much more likely to hear of long term success with those just based on the numbers. Not to mention the expert care a moorish idol demands. So it is safe to say you would probably have 500 to 1 (yellow tang to moorish idol), 20 plus year reports on longterm success. Assuming there is a 100 to 1 ratio and assuming moorish idols are 5 times harder to keep alive. Certainly not scientific, but you get the point. Very few tanks out there that are 20 years old without any kind of power failure like disaster to begin with. My idol came skinny and now has a beer gut going, hopefully it works out.

 

[Paul B]

I also can’t name one tank that is 10 years old with parasites.

You can name mine and I have been putting fish in there for decades with parasites. I post them all the time and have been since we had these discussions in paper magazines. Just last week as a matter of fact. Parasites are a non issue for me and I like them because they boost my fishes immune system. As for moorish Idols they do live twice that in public aquariums. Up to 12 years if I remember so if one can live that long, all of them can.

The reason there are no long term tanks without parasites is because a tank will somehow be exposed to parasites at some time and in a quarantined tank it will crash.

All the old tanks on this and other forums (old is over 30 years or so) do not quarantine. There is a reason for that. Those tanks are healthy and immune so disease doesn't bother them just as in the sea.

Also nobody you’re giving advice to have these 50 year old tanks, and ich will destroy their tanks.

It hasn't so far and being I am old, I may not keep my tank to much longer. But I always said I won't call it a success until it successfully reached fifty. Now I can call it a success.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

You can name mine and I have been putting fish in there for decades with parasites. I post them all the time and have been since we had these discussions in paper magazines. Just last week as a matter of fact. Parasites are a non issue for me and I like them because they boost my fishes immune system. As for moorish Idols they do live twice that in public aquariums. Up to 12 years if I remember so if one can live that long, all of them can.

The reason there are no long term tanks without parasites is because a tank will somehow be exposed to parasites at some time and in a quarantined tank it will crash.

All the old tanks on this and other forums (old is over 30 years or so) do not quarantine. There is a reason for that. Those tanks are healthy and immune so disease doesn't bother them just as in the sea.


It hasn't so far and being I am old, I may not keep my tank to much longer. But I always said I won't call it a success until it successfully reached fifty. Now I can call it a success.

The sea has trillions of gallons to disperse the parasites that hatch. A disaster that should never be allowed to happen in a tiny cube of water. Ich only gets in if you let it. Proper quarantine. What do you say to all of us that don’t have immune fish in 50 year old tanks? Let them get ich and whoever survives is immune? What happens when you get a new fish and due to its week immune system it gets covered in parasites. Hatching in a tiny amount of water sending thousands of parasites into the water. It either gets immune or dies? And how do you react to all your followers on this thread that claim all tanks have ich? A very well documented lifecycle. That was a hot topic on here that you did not comment on. Complete misinformation that you should have corrected.

The whole topic of this thread was a guy looking for help because his fish got ich. It has been hijacked by your “followers”. They say send your fish back to the store, you need a 20 year old tank for those fish. What do you say to that? What is your advice to this guy who made this thread to get help? Let the fish get completely covered in parasites and maybe 1 makes it through and is immune? Because if you don’t have better advice than that, getting rid of the parasites and being parasite free is one heck of an answer to his questin.

Please send info on the 12 year old idol.

 

[ying yang]

My concern would be if say a lfs doses low % copper in their tanks and it suppresses say example of ich,then I go lfs and watch a fish or 2 I like and everything looks good about the fish so I buy it or them and take home and put them in a quarantine tank and treat with copper to eradicate ich but because lfs had low dose of copper the ich parasites started to become immune to copper ( or could be any other diesese / parasite and medication ) then after say 30 days of treating copper then I do big wc and either medicate something else then observe the fish/ fishes for say 2 weeks and all is good with no spots or any sign of ich but then put fish in dt and within say 2 weeks or 2 months the ich starts showing up on my fish as it laid dormant.

As this is my concern ( one of main reasons why don't qt my fish as think if diesese/ parasites can get through anyway in the end ) then why bother.

So could scenario I said above happen ?
Or 100% cannot happen as parasites/ dieseses cannot get immune to medications ?

And fwiw I'm genuinely curious and not saying EVERYBODY DONT QT because I've read this and think this before anyone starts saying I'm advising new reefers not to qt as I'm not ^_^

Edit: put this in wrong thread but guess still relevant here

 

[Paul B]

That was a hot topic on here that you did not comment on. Complete misinformation that you should have corrected.

Lionfish hunter. I have answered those questions dozens of times and wrote a book on it.
Being I don't have anything to prove I won't go over it again.

Complete misinformation that you should have corrected.

OMG. I am going to look at my totally immune 50 year old very healthy tank and let you guys have fun.

I will see if I know how to un watch this thread although I don't think I have ever done that.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Lionfish hunter. I have answered those questions dozens of times and wrote a book on it.
Being I don't have anything to prove I won't go over it again.


OMG. I am going to look at my totally immune 50 year old very healthy tank and let you guys have fun.

I will see if I know how to un watch this thread although I don't think I have ever done that.

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I was asking you to answer the questions.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

My concern would be if say a lfs doses low % copper in their tanks and it suppresses say example of ich,then I go lfs and watch a fish or 2 I like and everything looks good about the fish so I buy it or them and take home and put them in a quarantine tank and treat with copper to eradicate ich but because lfs had low dose of copper the ich parasites started to become immune to copper ( or could be any other diesese / parasite and medication ) then after say 30 days of treating copper then I do big wc and either medicate something else then observe the fish/ fishes for say 2 weeks and all is good with no spots or any sign of ich but then put fish in dt and within say 2 weeks or 2 months the ich starts showing up on my fish as it laid dormant.

As this is my concern ( one of main reasons why don't qt my fish as think if diesese/ parasites can get through anyway in the end ) then why bother.

So could scenario I said above happen ?
Or 100% cannot happen as parasites/ dieseses cannot get immune to medications ?

And fwiw I'm genuinely curious and not saying EVERYBODY DONT QT because I've read this and think this before anyone starts saying I'm advising new reefers not to qt as I'm not ^_^

Edit: put this in wrong thread but guess still relevant here

If you're that worried about copper resistant strains you could do the tank transfer method. Every fish I have ever bought had no sign of ich that had ich, because of the low copper. Copper is a poison, as long as you use full strength recommend doses, there is very low likelihood the ich is that immune.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I'm not asking you to prove anything, I was asking you to answer the questions.

1. Do you believe ich resides in all aquariums?

2. Do you agree with your followers that the op should send his fish back to the store because he doesn't have a 20 year old system?

These were statements made on this thread quoting you, I and everybody here would like your thoughts.

3. Most importantly, we are not looking for you to prove yourself What advice do you give the op in his tank?

 

[ying yang]

If you're that worried about copper resistant strains you could do the tank transfer method. Every fish I have ever bought had no sign of ich that had ich, because of the low copper. Copper is a poison, as long as you use full strength recommend doses, there is very low likelihood the ich is that immune.

Thanks for reply ^_^
So low likely hood so still a small chance.
Will reply better tommorrow when get new phone as this phone playing up and very hard to type pffft

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Thanks for reply ^_^
So low likely hood so still a small chance.
Will reply better tommorrow when get new phone as this phone playing up and very hard to type pffft

No verified findings of full strength copper immunity that I am aware of.

 

[jmichaelh7]

So my quarantine tanks the Seachem badge now doesn’t turn blue after a day. I am assuming beneficial bacteria has set in and I can go longer with no water changes?

i was doing water changes every other day.

To the OP you need to continue dosing there is no other way around it with LR in your QT

 

[Lionfish hunter]

So my quarantine tanks the Seachem badge now doesn’t turn blue after a day. I am assuming beneficial bacteria has set in and I can go longer with no water changes?

i was doing water changes every other day.

To the OP you need to continue dosing there is no other way around it with LR in your QT

I have 2 quarantine tanks going right now. You can just dose seachem prime everyday. Assuming you are using copper power, prime is a hard no with cupramine. That will save you alot of work doing waterchanges, and water changes that frequently are stressful on the fish. It detoxifies the ammonia. I use fritz turbo start to cycle the tank quickly, and dose prime until the ammonia us gone. If your badge is yellow, you should be getting pretty low on the ammonia.

 

[jmichaelh7]

I have 2 quarantine tanks going right now. You can just dose seachem prime everyday. Assuming you are using copper power, prime is a hard no with cupramine. That will save you alot of work doing waterchanges, and water changes that frequently are stressful on the fish. It detoxifies the ammonia. I use fritz turbo start to cycle the tank quickly, and dose prime until the ammonia us gone. If your badge is yellow, you should be getting pretty low on the ammonia.

Prime is safe to use with Copper power?

Man I’m going through my second bucket of salt now doing water changes lol

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Prime is safe to use with Copper power?

Man I’m going through my second bucket of salt now doing water changes lol

Yes it is, 100 percent. I've been using it for the past month on multiple fish. Humblefish has a thread where he verified this aswell.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

The sea has trillions of gallons to disperse the parasites that hatch. A disaster that should never be allowed to happen in a tiny cube of water. Ich only gets in if you let it. Proper quarantine. What do you say to all of us that don’t have immune fish in 50 year old tanks? Let them get ich and whoever survives is immune? What happens when you get a new fish and due to its week immune system it gets covered in parasites. Hatching in a tiny amount of water sending thousands of parasites into the water. It either gets immune or dies? And how do you react to all your followers on this thread that claim all tanks have ich? A very well documented lifecycle. That was a hot topic on here that you did not comment on. Complete misinformation that you should have corrected.

The whole topic of this thread was a guy looking for help because his fish got ich. It has been hijacked by your “followers”. They say send your fish back to the store, you need a 20 year old tank for those fish. What do you say to that? What is your advice to this guy who made this thread to get help? Let the fish get completely covered in parasites and maybe 1 makes it through and is immune? Because if you don’t have better advice than that, getting rid of the parasites and being parasite free is one heck of an answer to his questin.

Please send info on the 12 year old idol.

Milliliter of sea water contains 10 million viruses, 1 million bacteria, and about 1000 protozoa and algae. Source Costal Wiki. So your misunderstanding about dilution of sea water was just brought into question. Each of these facts also point to the complicated nature of both the food Web in the ocean and how to best treat the fish that live there. Paul is doing his best to keep those forces in balance naturally. Striping fish of its natural immunity via chemical treatments may not be the best for long term success.

Just a thought.

 

[Miami Reef]

One person having success is not a call to action for everyone to jump in and copy. It takes repeatable results to have that.

If one person doesn’t die from cancer from smoking daily, should everyone smoke daily? If one person has an adult tang in a 10 gallon tank that never died, should everyone keep tangs in 10 gallons?

It doesn’t work like that. Paul B’s tank is not repeatable success. You cannot replicate that environment and guarantee the same results.