The Mindstream is DEAD!! I'm getting mine soon!

[K7BMG]

They state that a monthly subscription is part of the deal when you buy it.
It's kind of like buying a dish and then paying for a subscription for dish network or direct tv. If you stop paying your subscription, they will cut you off.
The difference with this (other than what it is being used for) is that the initial purchase is much more expensive. Given that they invested $7 million into developing the product and it's new technology, they apparently can't give you the device itself cheaply.
https://www.vermonttechnologyallian...undbreaking-Water-Technology-to-Consumers.htm
Like others here have stated, I hope that once this has been out there for a while the price on the device itself, or that of a competitor, brings the price down for this kind of service. As an example, I believe that Seneye has been talking about offering an alkalinity monitor with a subscriptioon

Yes I agree with you, just like a satellite service, except that with satellite you don't purchase the box and turn it in when you cancel.
If the box has a problem then its replaced.
Will this be the same? or do you need to buy the next unit at $1000.00.
Or when the next generation comes out will we be buying a second unit, and the first sits uselessly on the shelf?
I will not say never here but until I deem it a bit more fair to the consumer its a no go for me, especially on a new virtually untested device.

I am a business owner myself and understand the need of having to recoup the capital spent bringing a product to market, and paying that debt back before profit is obtained. This is a small market and the consumer base will have to pay that price.
I am thinking that in this case the outlay of capitol versus the potential return is way out of balance.
When its that far out of balance well we know what happens.
I don't know how many reefers are out their on the whole, and what percentage of them would or will ever purchase such a unit.
7000 plus units would have to be sold to break even. Sounds like a small number, but in this hobby and for this product that's a very large number.

 

[Opus]

I would love if they joined the forum so I could ask! I consider myself an informed skeptic. I look for things that “don’t make sense” in advertising and business practices. That’s just how look at new tech, and it’s up to the company to explain otherwise. I don’t just chug the advertising Gatorade, haha

Don't expect them to do that. Other than trade shows and the occasional post about how great their product will be they have been non existent since announcing their product. Hope their CS is better after launch.
As has already been stated in this thread, they have a lot of money to recoup and who knows how much time to do it in. If Australia is shut down in the next year or 2 as many expect then this hobby could be be shrinking and getting even more expensive.

 

[lexinverts]

Looks like GHL will get my business instead

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

 

[Snookin]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

I think you are getting caught up in just the testing aspect of the GHL vs Mindstream. GHL offers so much more value in terms of control and dosing options. Mindstream is just a testing device. GHL and Apex for that matter are far more than just as parameters testing devices.

 

[lexinverts]

I think you are getting caught up in just the testing aspect of the GHL vs Mindstream. GHL offers so much more value in terms of control and dosing options. Mindstream is just a testing device. GHL and Apex for that matter are far more than just as parameters testing devices.

No, I mentioned this in my post: "And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users."
If Mindstream develops the ability to pair with a dosing pump, then you'll have that too. As I said in my post, these are all factors worth considering.

 

[Snookin]

No, I mentioned this in my post: "And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users."
If Mindstream develops the ability to pair with a dosing pump, then you'll have that too. As I said in my post, these are all factors worth considering.

You still aren’t really getting my point. GHL and APEX can control a lot more than just parameters via a dosing pump. They have more value above and beyond that.

 

[leepink23]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

I saw where you can get %15 off all ghl right now
https://www.buckeyereef.com/forums/...-ultimate-group-buy-for-buckeye-reef-members/
Not trying to side track this thread, rather just fyi.

 

[Potatohead]

I thought about the costs versus goning completely with GHL too, as I am a GHL user. The KH director + plus required dosing pumps is $859, and that measures just KH. GHL is developing the ION director, which will measure Calcium and Mag and that will also need 2-3 pumps. I imagine that the cost of this will be about $859 as well. So, we are looking at about $1700 to measure 3 parameters. That's not cheap, and is about the cost of the Mindstream for purchase and 2 years of use. With GHL, you would have to purchase a controller to also monitor salinity and pH, etc... like the Mindstream, which is another $500+

To be fair, the reagent costs and the maintenance costs to keep the GHL units running and calibrated will very likely be less than $35 per month, so going with them could be cheaper in the long run. (Not to be discounted is the likely greater user labor to maintain the GHL units and set them up, whatever that is worth to each of us.) And, GHL allows you to CONTROL those parameters as well and this is very important to many users. GHL also has a good reputation for quality and is not going out of business anytime soon. These are all good things to consider, but IMHO saving money over the first year or two of use is not likely to be an advantage to going with GHL.

Personally there's no way I'm spending $1000 + $35 per month, and hoping my discs arrive on time and/or the thing doesn't crash and/or the company remains in business. Monthly fees for things like this really turn me off, I just want to pay up front and be done with it. If I had to buy discs say in three packs even that is a lot better, but I don't want to rely on other people sending them to me. If I want to buy a six to twelve month supply, I want to be able to do that.

With GHL I know what I am getting.

 

[lexinverts]

You still aren’t really getting my point. GHL and APEX can control a lot more than just parameters via a dosing pump. They have more value above and beyond that.

I am getting your point. It just isn't an easy apples to apples comparison, and maybe my point about costs isn't worth trying to make.

The prices that I quoted for GHL are for measuring and controlling 3 parameters and are about $1700 + the cost of reagents. The KH and ION directors do not need a Profilux controller to monitor and control those parameters. To do all of the other control stuff you are referring to you need to also get a Profilux 4 controller and that is another $500-900 with probes, etc... Now we are talking $2500-ish.

The Mindstream cannot control but it can monitor many more parameters. (It may have control function in the future, but who knows?). With GHL, to monitor and CONTROL something approaching the number of parameters as the Mindstream monitors (+ the other control features that mention) you would need to spend quite a bit more. For some users the control option with GHL will seem like a much better deal, but it is not inexpensive by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[lexinverts]

With GHL I know what I am getting.

Absolutely. My biggest concern with Mindstream is that they will not end up being profitable and will disappear.

 

[Potatohead]

The Ion Director will also measure nitrate, and most likely phosphate, which the Mindstream will not do.

 

[DangerDave]

Without reagent, all of the the testing devices are “bricked”. They’re effectively useless without them. I have a $500 KH Guardian monitor that tests one parameter. I have a $750 reefbot that can test a few parameters. I will pay $1k for a device to test 10 parameters. My time is valuable to me, between work and a large family these devices to automate tasks and testing have allowed me to have a complex reef system with short time available.

That said, I will sit back and see how it goes at first. I really hope it’s accurate and reliable.

Dave

 

[lexinverts]

The Ion Director will also measure nitrate, and most likely phosphate, which the Mindstream will not do.

If the ION director measured nitrate, it would be more worth it to me. I'm not sure that it is a given it will measure nitrate. What I read was Ca and Mag for sure and maybe some others.

 

[roberthu526]

Seeing this kind of discussion makes me think what's wrong with manual water testing... I test ALK every other day and calcium once every four days, nitrate and phosphate once a week. It doesn't take that much time and it's actually a fun way of learning the tank...
Some times technology pushes us away from the hobby I think.

 

[Potatohead]

If the ION director measured nitrate, it would be more worth it to me. I'm not sure that it is a given it will measure nitrate. What I read was Ca and Mag for sure and maybe some others.

Based on the thread linked below, nitrate is 99% a given. Phosphate is also possible but it may be delayed a little while and then a software update will allow it, I guess they need more time to perfect it. The last parameter is still up in the air.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ion-director-what-other-values-would-you-like-to-measure.574280/

 

[Potatohead]

Seeing this kind of discussion makes me think what's wrong with manual water testing... I test ALK every other day and calcium once every four days, nitrate and phosphate once a week. It doesn't take that much time and it's actually a fun way of learning the tank...
Some times technology pushes us away from the hobby I think.

I do this too and honestly even if everything was automated, I probably would still do it just to ensure everything was functioning ok. It's more about stability and really knowing how your tank operates than it is about saving twenty minutes a week, at least for me.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

So are we going to have to buy the device and then pay for a subscription as well?

 

[Opus]

So are we going to have to buy the device and then pay for a subscription as well?

Yes. $1000 and then $35 per month. Maybe less if they offer some kind of deal for a 3 month or 6 month subscription. I wonder how reliable their cloud service is?

 

[Opus]

Absolutely. My biggest concern with Mindstream is that they will not end up being profitable and will disappear.

Or they could be bought out and the new owner jacks the prices up because they want to recoup their costs quicker. Or it could be like a product I bought a few years ago that relied on a cloud based service. The company that bought them out just wanted the patents put not the actual product I was using. Got an email stating my product would work until this date and then would be useless because they were shutting down the cloud service.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Yes. $1000 and then $35 per month. Maybe less if they offer some kind of deal for a 3 month or 6 month subscription. I wonder how reliable their cloud service is?

Seriously?! What a joke if i pay that kind of money for something i shouldnt be charged to use it.... lol ill stick to the old fashioned way.