The opportunity cost of one Vortech MP60 - Greed in the aquarium hobby. Apex & Vortech & More

[ca1ore]

The point is, unless the coral vendors can verify the coral actually came from Australia, they really shouldn't be labeling as such and jacking the prices up.

I think you'd get unanimous consensus that vendors should not misrepresent the source of the corals they sell. I'm sure mistakes happen, but I don't have any reason to think there widespread fraud here.

 

[Bato367]

Nothing is going to change unless people stop buying them, and that doesnt appear to be happening. I for one refuse to spend that amount of money.

A-Greed. Some of the best reef tanks out there do not have Apex or Ecotech products installed...#notnecessary.

 

[TheHarold]

A-Greed. Some of the best reef tanks out there do not have Apex or Ecotech products installed...#notnecessary.

Link?

 

[Bato367]

Link?

I don't need to post a link to prove that nice reef tanks existed prior to ca. 2009; they exist.

Are these products nice? Absolutely. Are they essential to have a nice reef tank? No.

 

[TheHarold]

I don't need to post a link to prove that nice reef tanks existed prior to ca. 2009; they exist.

Are these products nice? Absolutely. Are they essential to have a nice reef tank? No.

Hmm.

Tanks with success with hard corals similar to current aquariums?

I didn’t say they are essential. But I was curious what “best reef tanks out there” you are referring to.

 

[reffersmoke]

Mp60 MSRP: 675$
A submersible, controllable, programmable water fan.

>

1 1/5th Apex Controllers

10 Jabao wavemakers
10 submersible, controllable, programmable water fans, with a fat 90% markup thrown on top, at-least.

1-3 Round trip airline tickets anywhere in the US

2 1/2 NVIDIA GTX 1060s (High powered computer graphics cards. Technology)

7 Intex 12' circular above ground pools w/pump

30 things that cost 20$

67 things that cost 10$

140 thick cut sirloin steaks

300 gallons of gasoline

600 cans of beer

1000 lbs of rice, 10,000 servings.

168,750 gallons of drinkable water

People love hobbies, lets make money from those people.
- Apex + Vortech

There is no way, on earth, a wavemaker (water fan) should have this price tag. The price gouging in this hobby from american product suppliers is pretty bad. Many hobbyists turned to asian markets long ago for affordable and good quality equipment. The Apex is such a ripoff, we have resulted to building our own controllers with reef-pi. The reviews are pretty average, and the equipment is not invincible. If you own any of these products, you know they are good products. My beef is with the companies ripping us off. Their product reviews are full of price complaints.

Instead of charging a ridiculous markup, wouldn't you want your equipment in the hands of as many reef-keepers as possible to make the hobby more accessible, to improve the quality of life for more aquariums and prevent more tank failures?

That's what you would think; however, they've instead gone with the charge as much as possible from our customers like it's the 1960's business model. Its 2020, are you making products for the benefit and advancement of the hobby, or only alienating loads of reef keepers by trying to charge as much as humanly possible to increase profits? Can't you tone it down just a little bit?

Yes I care about my fish and corals, but Im not going to get taken for a ride and spend 4k on a tank so that I can have a semigloss finish on my wavemaker controller and get text alerts from a controller with basic 1990's technology and high-school level programming when I am on vacation. This stuff should be affordable.

Instead, I'll continue making snow angles in my pile of Jabeo wavemakers and return pumps while waiting patiently for an affordable aquarium controller from the asian markets - a market sector that companies like vortech and apex don't want to fill because they are too busy maxing out their profit margins.


Enough is enough.


Why was reef keeping originally started?
The goal of aquarium keeping is not to have a cool tank in your bedroom to impress your friends or brag about on the forums. We are propagating corals, fish, and potentially benefiting the oceans later on down the line. These American brands don't want to participate in that endeavor by reaching to mid grade aquarists. For affordable and quality aquarium equipment, we will have to look to the asian markets.




.

Im with you bro , but at the same time I cant wait until i see someone "getting out of the hobby" this summer and Im getting one ..... but would never ever ever pay full price for their product , and at the same time yes this is America #SupplyandDemand .... I guarantee that i get all that 'jazzy" equipment by the end of the summer for 50-70% lower than its true cost ...#jerseyboy

 

[Nokiaec11]

Many companies go after the people who want to be considered the experts, or the scale to be graded against..."Get this or that and you will be the one that others look up to"...walk on a car lot looking like you want to impress people, and you will leave with something you really can't afford and live the same as you do...I know people who have tank success with all ebay discount parts..."It ain't what you drive, but how you drive it"

 

[Broadwave]

At the end of the day, the price point on these newer pumps is indeed getting out of hand. That being said, companies like EcoTech, Jaebo and Maxspect are putting some great engineering into these newer products which of course, ends up costing more money. To imply that you can't have one of the "best reef tanks out there" without these products is not only subjective and naive but completely disingenuous. I've been in this hobby since 2000 and have seen my fair share of really nice reef tanks that were run on nothing more than a bunch of maxi-jet 1200's on a wavemaker.

 

[Oldreefer44]

At the end of the day, the price point on these newer pumps is indeed getting out of hand. That being said, companies like EcoTech, Jaebo and Maxspect are putting some great engineering into these newer products which of course, ends up costing more money. To imply that you can't have one of the "best reef tanks out there" without these products is not only subjective and naive but completely disingenuous. I've been in this hobby since 2000 and have seen my fair share of really nice reef tanks that were run on nothing more than a bunch of maxi-jet 1200's on a wavemaker.

Agree. There are many tanks elsewhere in the world that use products from Europe and the Orient. The fish and coral in your aquarium could care less about the brand of the pump or anything else that creates a good environment for them as long as it does. The old axiom that you get what you pay for does not necessarily apply to most of the major products where the price is set by the manufacturer. As someone who managed in that environment, my experience is that the price is set to achieve the margin needed by the company. The margin therefore can be anywhere between 10% to 90%. But before we start in on reef products we could easily talk about apparel where the starting margin on any name brand is 70 to 90%.

 

[amoore311]

These posts have been made about Ecotech and Apex since the first version of the Neptunes Aqua controller and the Gen1 Ecotech Pumps were released. Easily over a decade.

Guess what? They are still selling like literal hot cakes just like the day each of the flagship products were released. So what incentive is there to lower the price? If the price was too high, they wouldn't be selling.

People want them, and because they can't afford them they complain. Be like the Raspberry Pi guys and think of a creative solution if these products aren't "worth what the manufacturers command" instead of whining about it online. Then you'll have your solution, and at the same time so does the higher end hobbyist who doesn't want to screw around with computer programming to get a controller to work.

This hobby is a rare one in that you can get in at just about any disposable income level and be successful at keeping corals. If you can't afford a vortech, go buy one of the 12+ options you have otherwise that run at a better price point.

 

[Sabellafella]

I can't see any product from neptune other than the ddr and the atk as being a RIPoff. They are both too over priced. But almost 400 bucks for an mp40 that rusted on me twice in a year with a customer service attitude deffinitly won't buy me again. I cannot have pumps failing, think it's a fumble between reliability and aesthetics is what I'm looking for. I'm sure one can clearly agree some products are entirely a ripoff just from being aquarium marketed alone

 

[Bpb]

Hmm.

Tanks with success with hard corals similar to current aquariums?

I didn’t say they are essential. But I was curious what “best reef tanks out there” you are referring to.

That’s easy. I’m not going to link a competitor forum, but if you simply log onto another forum that rhymes with “reef ventral”, hop onto the sps specific forums, and click the sticky that says “best sps tanks from around the world”. scroll to the top. Anyone who can’t appreciate those because they don’t contain pea sized frags with blue led macro shots of the latest reef raft or vivid offering is simply in the hobby for the wrong reason. Those old school tanks around the 2010 era to me are still the pinnacle of what can be achieved in the hobby with diligence. Most were using ac tunze pumps, closed loops, with the occasional tunze stream or wavebox. It’s frankly rare to see sps tanks packed that densely in this era of the hobby. People lack the patience and are too motivated by frag sales. I’m guilty of it myself.

 

[AndreasBergmann]

One should also factor in personal needs. Maybe the person with is 600 gallon 10ft peninsula tank only wants pumps on the side against the wall. Thus meaning the hydro wizard or MP60 meets his needs for water flow to the other side.
There are a TON of variables and the most important one is personal choice.

Corey

One can not compare the quality of materials used for the Hydro Wizard with the MP, as there is a long way between Abyzz and vortex return pumps.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I can't see any product from neptune other than the ddr and the atk as being a RIPoff. They are both too over priced. But almost 400 bucks for an mp40 that rusted on me twice in a year with a customer service attitude deffinitly won't buy me again. I cannot have pumps failing, think it's a fumble between reliability and aesthetics is what I'm looking for. I'm sure one can clearly agree some products are entirely a ripoff just from being aquarium marketed alone

Good- im not the only one with rust and accused of it getting wet. How can a device outside of a tank fall into a tank - Duh
But they insist their engineers have a way to determine that.

 

[Jacksmedula]

All hobbies are exactly that... hobbies, not staples. They are all niche and all function on consumer disposable income. Some consumers have more and some have less. The market caters to both sides.

This same argument occurs in every forum for every hobby you can think of. Case in point... RC airplanes. Very niche and as expensive or cheap as the hobbyist makes it. Replace Apex with Futaba, Ecotech with Spektrum etc.. and the same arguments about gouging, overpriced, not worth it, company xxxx does the same thing for xxx% cheaper go on and on.

You can have a 100.00 rig with Chinese crap or a decked out 10k turbine. Both can fly or crash. You can have a reef tank with DIY parts or a designer tank with nothing but ORA pieces or anything in between. Both can be successful or die. Everything boils down to value. Just like success, value is only defined by the individual.

Speaking for myself; when I was into RC I bought Futaba radios and servos, Saito and OS engines. I had a couple of Byron originals. Why? I weighed my disposable income against what “I” thought was the best in terms of value to meet my goals in the hobby. Value for me being defined by quality, reliability, prestige, aesthetics, ease of use and overall satisfaction.

Same goes for reefing. I buy Ecotech, Apex, Maxspect, why? Same reason... available disposable income vs my perception of value. Would I like a Reef Saavy tank, Bubble King skimmer and Abyzz return? Absolutely. Could I afford them? Probably. Would I find value in purchasing them? Probably not. Doesn’t mean I look down or up to anyone that buys Abyzz or Jebao. I just see different people going different routes to achieve the same goal... a beautiful tank that makes the hobbyist happy.

I guess I will never understand why there is such animosity from both sides of the coin. “That’s garbage and you will fail”, “that’s way overpriced, you’re dumb when (insert company) does the same thing”.

Ultimately, who cares who uses what and what a company’s profit margin is?

 

[TheHarold]

I want to make a site called “BitterAboutCapitalism.com”.

Then I can link it whenever I see threads like this LOL

 

[BZOFIQ]

I want to make a site called “BitterAboutCapitalism.com”.

Then I can link it whenever I see threads like this LOL

LOL The domain is still available

https://www.godaddy.com/domainsearc...skey=&domainToCheck=BitterAboutCapitalism.com

 

[TheHarold]

LOL The domain is still available

https://www.godaddy.com/domainsearc...skey=&domainToCheck=BitterAboutCapitalism.com

Want to split the cost? We can put some memes on the front, make it aquatic theme, etc .

Put images of cheap and expensive reefing equipment too

 

[KStatefan]

I want to make a site called “BitterAboutCapitalism.com”.

Then I can link it whenever I see threads like this LOL

That seems to be about a thread a day

 

[biecacka]

One can not compare the quality of materials used for the Hydro Wizard with the MP, as there is a long way between Abyzz and vortex return pumps.

I’m not comparing quality of materials. Im only talking about a persons needs or desires for the tank they own.

Corey