Time outs for fish/behavior Q

Lyss

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This is a Q about aggression and behavior in general. The fish in question are my FW puffers, but I’m looking for some thoughts in general about fish in time out and aggression.

I have a trio of dwarf puffers in a heavily planted 10g waterbox cube — two females and a male, said to be the perfect/recommended ratio. Well, the male is now nearly double the size of the females, and a real jerk. He is aggressive.

The other day one of the girls appeared for breakfast but wasn’t eating, had a pretty badly torn tail, and looked totally lost. I witnessed him bully her relentlessly to the point I thought she was going to die. I put her in an acclimation box, but she still wouldn’t eat. Left her in there overnight, and this morning she ate a bunch of bladder snails — she attacked them w/the normal dwarf puffer gusto. She is doing much better.

So my Qs are:

1. What is the best strategy for releasing her back into the main part of the tank? I plan to keep her in the acclimation box at least another day, but she’ll be happier in the main tank.

2. In the future, would isolating the male in the box be a good strategy for handling him? I have the girl in there now b/c she wasn’t eating and I could better manage that, but going forward I’d rather punish the jerk and not the innocents. Does this sort of thing actually work, behaviorally speaking?

Just some background in general: dwarf puffers are shoaling fish — they like the company of each other, but they are more “neighbors not roommates” in their disposition. The plants help to keep it so they’re not always w/in eyesight of each other as they explore the tank. If they are hunting and see another, they attack — usually just a chase-away type of thing. All of this is to say this behavior is in their nature. The females rush each other sometimes, too, but this male in particular is very dominant and can be much more aggressive. The other female holds her own pretty well, but this one is more timid and an easier mark for aggression.
 
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Lyss

Lyss

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Bumping this. Anybody have experience w/fish aggression and “time outs” and can answer the Qs above?

Here’s a pic of the little girl, and you can see the damage done to her tail. She’s done a 360 from y’day — annihilated a bunch of live snails and frozen bloodworms, and now wants out of isolation. But the jerky male has been eyeing her…
 

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vtecintegra

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My experience has been an aggressive fish will always be aggressive. Time outs have not worked for me. It sucks, but any aggressive fish gets removed from my tank. I've rehomed or returned a bonded pair of clowns, a bonded pair of log nose hawks, and a few others.

I try not to blame the fish though. In the wild their territory can be thousands of gallons, and we squeeze them to microscopic quantities of water compared to nature.

I don't know anything about puffers as far as bonding or territory habits. But I would say one or the other has to go.
 
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Lyss

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My experience has been an aggressive fish will always be aggressive. Time outs have not worked for me. It sucks, but any aggressive fish gets removed from my tank. I've rehomed or returned a bonded pair of clowns, a bonded pair of log nose hawks, and a few others.

I try not to blame the fish though. In the wild their territory can be thousands of gallons, and we squeeze them to microscopic quantities of water compared to nature.

I don't know anything about puffers as far as bonding or territory habits. But I would say one or the other has to go.
There’s nothing I would like more than to get rid of him — he makes keeping this entire tank stressful. Where the girls just dart at each other and chase away, he attacks and does damage, and this behavior has only gotten worse as he’s matured. I have even seen him bite to the point where one girl puffed up to make him let go — serious stuff. But I can’t take him back to the LFS — they won’t take him — and I don’t know anyone who wants him. So I’m stuck with this problem I’ve got to solve creatively.

Edit: for now I’m going to release her and put him in the box b/c he’s the worst.
 

vtecintegra

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Got curious so I did some quick reading. Aggressive, territorial, and fin nippers were commonly us to describe these puffers, especially males. Which seems to be what you'e experiencing. Since it's an inherent trait, I doubt even more that the behavior can be changed. They sound like they are better as a single fish only per tank, as they will possibly be aggressive to other species, too. I had a problem fish in quarantine once, so I put a divider in the tank to keep the bad fish away from the others until I returned it, or you could set up another tank just for the male.
 

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I didn’t read your entire post. But I’m not sure fish have the mental capacity to learn from time out. Why don’t you just donate him to a reputable fish store? I’m sure someone would love to have him.
 
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Got curious so I did some quick reading. Aggressive, territorial, and fin nippers were commonly us to describe these puffers, especially males. Which seems to be what you'e experiencing. Since it's an inherent trait, I doubt even more that the behavior can be changed. They sound like they are better as a single fish only per tank, as they will possibly be aggressive to other species, too. I had a problem fish in quarantine once, so I put a divider in the tank to keep the bad fish away from the others until I returned it, or you could set up another tank just for the male.
Yeah, I know all about them — have had these three for some time now, and wrote about them in the last paragraph of my initial post giving that info (they are shoaling and do better in groups so they don’t get depressed, but need ample cover to keep aggression at bay). It’s recommended a species-only tank with only one male per tank, but even this one male is a bit much. Since I can’t rehome him the best I’m gonna be able to do is have the tank bursting with more plants and add some more seed pods/hides.

I was just wondering if folks on this board had experience to share with how they’ve handled this sort of thing.
 

Sharkbait19

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Dwarf puffers are a holes, I’ve had a few.
I tried a group in a 5 gallon, one whittled it down to just him.
Could you get a closer shot of the beat up one, just to confirm it’s a female and not a male?
Use dense plant cover to break up the lines of sight and extra fish like tetras or danios can possibly act as targets for the aggressor.
One possibility is that he wants to breed, and is harassing the female to breed.
They are shoaling fish in the wild, though this normally needs a large tank to accomplish and a large group to break up aggression. They do just as fine alone as they do with each other. The only puffer that actually 100% enjoys company and needs to be with others is colomesus asselus (Amazon puffer).
10 gallons is definitely good for 3 though.
One more option is to set up a small 5 gallon to rehome the male to.
I agree that time outs don’t really work, once the fish is back in it just resumes normal behavior.
You can try also moving around the decor when re introducing the female. This is a common trick with aggressive fish which disorients them.
 
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Dwarf puffers are a holes, I’ve had a few.
I tried a group in a 5 gallon, one whittled it down to just him.
Could you get a closer shot of the beat up one, just to confirm it’s a female and not a male?
Use dense plant cover to break up the lines of sight and extra fish like tetras or danios can possibly act as targets for the aggressor.
One possibility is that he wants to breed, and is harassing the female to breed.
They are shoaling fish in the wild, though this normally needs a large tank to accomplish and a large group to break up aggression. They do just as fine alone as they do with each other. The only puffer that actually 100% enjoys company and needs to be with others is colomesus asselus (Amazon puffer).
10 gallons is definitely good for 3 though.
One more option is to set up a small 5 gallon to rehome the male to.
I agree that time outs don’t really work, once the fish is back in it just resumes normal behavior.
You can try also moving around the decor when re introducing the female. This is a common trick with aggressive fish which disorients them.
Pretty sure it’s a female b/c it has blue on some of the spots. If it’s male it’s growth-stunted haha. The actual male is like double the size of the other two now.

I would only do 1 in a 5 gallon for sure. Given this experience, I’d say 2 in a 10 gallon is prob the safest way to go even though ppl say 3 in a 10g, unless you end up w/2 males.

Ive got him in time out for now just for my own peace, and so she can establish herself in the tank w/o him bugging her. I’m due for a water change tomorrow and will take your advice of a little re-scape, and will add some seed pods that can serve as hides, too. More plants are also on my list…
 
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Lyss

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My reef tank is looking the best it has in a few months so I’m pretty much over these FW puffers rn lol There’s always gotta be a problem somewhere, I guess.
 

Sharkbait19

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I’d keep the female out until it’s 100% healed up.
Males will have wrinkles around the eyes and a black stripe along the belly.
My reef tank is looking the best it has in a few months so I’m pretty much over these FW puffers rn lol There’s always gotta be a problem somewhere, I guess.
Definitely know the feeling, once one tank is going well, another decides to go wrong…
 
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Lyss

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Closing the loop on this since there is now a resolution...

I decided to keep the little female in the acclimation box for about a month and during that time she did very well -- ate a ton and fully healed. I let her out at night but left the box in the tank w/the lid open just in case there was trouble, so I could get her back in there in the morning if needed. Next morning the bully was in the box on his own looking around for food, so I shut him in! He stayed in there for a couple weeks, and did not like it one bit. If I had more patience I might have left him in there for a couple more weeks, but I wanted my tank back to normal.

I let the bully out of the box right before a water change, and rescaped the tank with additional plants, rocks, and hides during the water change. This definitely was a reset and all three fish banded together to explore the new environment. Things have been much more harmonious now, but I do need to be extra careful when I feed them b/c that is when the bully's worst tendencies come out. I've managed to strike the right balance by using a pipette to shoo him away from the worm cone they get fed with so the 2 females can have first dibs. These little fish are pretty smart, and he has definitely gotten the message -- all I need to do is show him the pipette when it's feeding time and he hangs back while the ladies take first dibs at the food. I've also begun to spread some of their bloodworms around the tank so they can hunt for them the rest of the day -- which they do -- and the worms are not just concentrated to one area of the tank.

I still see a little chasing going on, but that is always the case with this species of fish anyway, and the females will also do that to each other. Mainly territorial behavior while they are hunting, which they pretty much do all day. I have not seen any aggression as alarming as I witnessed before -- knock on wood.
 
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