treating with copper?

[coralbeauties]

most of my fish have gotten a pretty bad case of ick that are in my 180 gallon sps tank. I have tubs that I could put my live rock and corals in and treat in the main tank. Is that a possibility or would it mess up the tank for ever putting in rock and corals later? I dont have anything other then tubs to put the fish in and might be a real hassle to catch them without doing more harm. what does anyone think? I am in a frantic state right now. I think I need to treat NOW.
thanks
Jeff

 

[4FordFamily]

Many will tell you not to do this, I've done it successfully several times. That said, I've never had luck with SPS and perhaps that's a contributing factor. I keep monti caps but anything else I dont do well with. I also don't really try or dose as I should and my nitrates and phosphates run high due to overstocked tanks, perhaps copper isn't the issue. Even the ocean has low amounts of copper present.

Cuprisorb, carbon, and heavy water changes over a two week period (replaced cuprisorb at least twice through that period) will remove culramine well. I don't use other copper products so I don't know about how easy this is with them.

I will say this though that you'll have to dose 3-4 times as much cupramine, testing daily (use seachem or salifert kits only for cupramine) until it is remotely stable due to leaching. It leaches out as easily as it absorbs in to the rock and sand in my experience.

Many here think this is absolute madness but I've done it successfully 4 times or more over my 12 years in the hobby with success, and long term coral health, even clams. I even left a hermit in at double the therapeutic level of cupramine for 2 months and he survived until I found and removed him! Pretty astonishing. Don't try that though.

I would recommend though that you buy a qt tank and look up [HASHTAG]#humblefish[/HASHTAG] 's thread on properly qting and leave the tank fallow.

It really is your best bet. Less risk, less possibility for trouble. The problem you'll run in to whether qt or display is ammonia. Ammonia will jump quickly even in an established tank with live rock and sand. There are debates about whether that is the beneficial bacteria dying or just being shocked. I can tell you that one of my 180 has had heavy doses of cupramine now for 3.5-4 months and supports a grossly overstocked fish list just fine, so it either recovers or adapts.

You'll want the sea chem ammonia badge to test how much ammonia is truly present with any of the options involving copper or cupramine as many of them will render ammonia tests useless and show false positive readings.

Do large water changes any time you see the badge displaying anything other than healthy yellow (the baseline color it showed when you added it to a cycled tank). For my DT I had to do this for 2-3 weeks daily 40 gallon water changes. For qt tanks it will take longer to seed and require just as frequent water changes, up to 75-80% as I do in my 55 qt when they're heavily stocked (as they often are when you take a lot of fish out of your DT to run it fallow and move them to a qt)

So you'll want lots of RODI water, lots of sponge for a HOB filter for bacteria to colonize (I add more to the tank inside near a power head as well), I use araga milk also to increase PH in fresh water changed water, the ammonia badge, cupramine, a power head to break the surface and keep the water oxygenated and/or a bubbler (prefer PH), and either sailfert or sea chem copper test kits. Polyfiber pads wouldn't be a bad idea either to combat ammonia. I also place them somewhat "stuck" to a power head so they get lots of flow.

People struggle with QT but it's often ammonia that kills the fish. Follow these instructions and you'll be fine. Act quickly.

If your fish are already sick (and they are) then you may lose fish anyway, regardless of what you do. It is probably a good idea to do a freshwater dip when they leave your DT and enter the QT to give them some immediate relief while you SLOWLY increase cupramine to .5 PPM (I actually use .7 as my average as it seems more effective, perfectly safe, and prevents against downward swings that give the parasite another round of reproduction during the low swing)

I'll let humblefish help you with the freshwater dip, or do a quick forum search he has lots of great information in the disease forum!

But those who say that qt kill fish generally didn't heed warnings about ammonia (which you'll have trouble with no matter which route you take), and the fish were ill already so stress and the parasite itself has already weakened them. In both cases, qt is blamed rather than poor husbandry, which is almost always the real culprit. Proof to follow.

The worst thing you can do in a bad outbreak is nothing.

I've successfully kept several VERY fragile fish through qt in an immensely overstocked environment. Regal Angels (2), Achilles tangs (2), copperband butterflies, leopard wrasse, moorish idol, and many more.

These two tanks in the video below currently have .6-.7 ppm copper in them as you are looking at these videos. Literally they're in copper water in those videos. They have been for a couple months again after I moronically reinfected my tank by cross contaminating.


(Switch to 720p HD)


(Again, switch to HD)

They've been in it for months and are thriving without issue. Soon to go back in a fallow DT after 72 days (as recommended).

Good luck!

 

[Humblefish]

The first thing to ascertain is whether this is indeed ich or actually velvet. When I hear people say they've got a "pretty bad case of ich", and that they feel massive fish deaths are imminent without treatment, then that's usually velvet. Can you post pics of the affected fish? Also, when was the last fish added to this tank?

You technically can use your DT for treatment but that option is not without its pitfalls. If this is indeed ich, and you are adamant about using your DT as the treatment tank, then your best option might be to just remove the corals/inverts and hypo the entire DT. Leaving rock/sand intact for biological filtration. However, if this is velvet then you'd have to remove EVERYTHING (including rock & sand) and use copper.

 

[coralbeauties]

I removed all the fish from the tank tonight and put them in 2 different temporary tubs till I can get a tank set up. I had to break down the entire tank to get them. Got all the fish out but a dragon goby that I couldnt find. They are currently in hypo salinity at 1.008. I added a powder brown and moorish idol about 3 weeks ago and have also been treating the corals for aefw with bayer. I do know some of the bayer leached into the main tank due to the fact that my 3 shrimp died shortly after putting the rinsed rocks back into the tank. There are the typical white salt like grains on the body of the fish. The powder brown is near death in the tub and my royal gramma is probably going to die. I hope to have the others pull through and I plan on buying and setting up a 90 gallon qt tomorrow if I can get the guy on craigs list to answer my email. Should I keep the hypo treatment as the only treatment or add anything along with it?
thanks
Jeff

 

[Lazys Coral House]

With hypo it is not recommended to do any other types of treatment. Hopefully you don't lose anymore fish. good luck

 

[Humblefish]

I wouldn't mix anything with hypo treatment, except you will probably need to buffer the water occasionally to combat low pH.

Are your fish completely covered in the "white salt like grains" or is it more here & there? Can you count the number of white dots on them or are there too many to count? This is important for proper diagnosis.

 

[Humblefish]

To give you a visible example of ich & velvet, below are two pics of a Dogface puffer with ich. Notice the white dots are larger and spread out:



Now here are two pics of a PT completely covered with velvet. Notice how the dots are smaller and so numerous, almost completely covering the fish:



Here is another pic of velvet on a Halfblack Angel:

 

[coralbeauties]

First off thanks for all the replies. Thanks Brian for answering my texts yesterday.
wow the visible white specs look almost the same on both fish other then tons more of them with the velvet. They are still in the tubs today so I cant get a good pic of them your your guys help with diagnosis. The powder brown that I wrote off yesterday is swimming around today. I was able to see some bumps that looked like they were below the skin on my yellow tang. I will hopefully get them in a hospital tank tonight and maybe get a pic.
I have another question. I wasnt able to find and catch my dragon goby yesterday and I just saw him in the main tank. If my outbreak is ich will that fish allow the ich to stay in the system even if I wait the 2-3 months to try and rid the tank of ich?
thanks
jeff

 

[Humblefish]

I have another question. I wasnt able to find and catch my dragon goby yesterday and I just saw him in the main tank. If my outbreak is ich will that fish allow the ich to stay in the system even if I wait the 2-3 months to try and rid the tank of ich?

Yes; all fish must be removed in order for the fallow period to be effective. If even just one fish is left behind, their skin/gills are "food" for the parasites to feed upon & continue their life cycle. The parasites only starve to death once denied a fish host. For 72 days in the case of ich; 6 weeks for velvet.

 

[coralbeauties]

thanks, I put a 2 liter bottle trap in the tank tonight. If he gets hungry enough I think he will go into the trap. The rest of the fish seem to be doing good in their prison cell. Still working on finding a tank.
Jeff

 

[coralbeauties]

I got all the fish into the used tank that I bought today. Most of the fish are looking better. My purple tang still looks kindof dull in color and I think I can see something on the skin. The powder brown looks the worst. It is laying on its side just like it did when I put it into the tubs. I did get a pic of the powder. Sorry it isnt the greatest. From what I am seeing it looks alot li?ke the pics of the above tang with velvet. what do you think and how do I need to slowly raise the salinity and treat with copper or something else. Lazylivin who is a friend in our local club likes to use copper in his qt tank. What do you think I am dealing with here?
thanks
Jeff

 

[Humblefish]

The pic is kinda blurry, but the fish looks to be completely covered. Could be velvet, but being it's an Acanthurus tang they are very susceptible to ich as well.

My vote is use copper - preferably Cupramine.

 

[Humblefish]

I also suggest giving that Powder Brown a 5 min FW dip, following the instructions below. Might buy you enough time before you can raise the SG and begin copper treatment.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.