Treatment Protocol for Sick Anemones

[gig 'em]

I think I understand what @cromag27 is getting at. We have observed a correlation between better survival rates with cipro compared to anemones that have not been treated, but we haven't identified why exactly. Could it just be that adding cipro to the water keeps harmful bacterial blooms in check when a large anemone is isolated in a small volume of water for a few days? Is the cipro inhibiting a pathogenic bacteria inside the anemone that is causing it harm? We all have to admit we really don't know how cipro helps, just that it does sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't, so we clearly have some more area for improvement in this topic.

We are aware from studies on hard corals that surface microbes play a large role in coral deaths during stressing events. When corals are stressed from a heat wave or some other environmental shift, their mucus production is reduced and microbes that are always found on the surface of corals become a problem for the corals because their protection has been hindered. Is the same thing happening with these anemones? I wish I had the answer, but it might be our best guess at the moment. If I were to make a guess on how cipro helps these anemones after they've been stressed in the shipping process, this would be my best hypothesis.

 

[cromag27]

For sure Cipro isn't going to do anything for ugly carpets. If you are trying to use Cipro to change ugly carpet to nice colorful carpet, no wonder you think that Cipro did nothing.
Before using reefers using antibiotics for treatment of sick anemones become widespread, the number of people who are successfully keep Gigantea in the US long term can be count on one hand. I know because I essentially corresponded to virtually all of them. I did not count the number of reefers from out of the US, mainly because the problem I feel was due to anemone got sick after prolong shipping.
Anyway, after reefers started to use various antibiotics to treat anemones, the numbers of Gigantea living in captivity increased by many thousand fold. Just because we don't have clinical trials, does not mean the treatment does not do anything. Just like there is no trial regarding SPS need to be keep under light, does not mean that the observation that SPS needed light is incorrect. Or that SPS need periord of darkness or else the will bleached and died (many reefers does not know this).
By the way I am a medial doctor by training. I did a lot of clinical trials, on human, though out my training.

i never said i was trying to change ugly carpet into colorful ones.

 

[cromag27]

I think I understand what @cromag27 is getting at. We have observed a correlation between better survival rates with cipro compared to anemones that have not been treated, but we haven't identified why exactly. Could it just be that adding cipro to the water keeps harmful bacterial blooms in check when a large anemone is isolated in a small volume of water for a few days? Is the cipro inhibiting a pathogenic bacteria inside the anemone that is causing it harm? We all have to admit we really don't know how cipro helps, just that it does sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't, so we clearly have some more area for improvement in this topic.

We are aware from studies on hard corals that surface microbes play a large role in coral deaths during stressing events. When corals are stressed from a heat wave or some other environmental shift, their mucus production is reduced and microbes that are always found on the surface of corals become a problem for the corals because their protection has been hindered. Is the same thing happening with these anemones? I wish I had the answer, but it might be our best guess at the moment. If I were to make a guess on how cipro helps these anemones after they've been stressed in the shipping process, this would be my best hypothesis.

exactly. we can use deductive reasoning but ZERO scientific evidence cipro does anything for anemones.

 

[davocean]

exactly. we can use deductive reasoning but ZERO scientific evidence cipro does anything for anemones.

Well, maybe this has not been explained scientifically in a book per say, but I've seen the explanation posted as to how it works before by those familiar or educated in medicine, like Minh/Orion.

My own personal understanding is just years of observation and paying attention to this practice, and my focus in this hobby is primarily on anemone's and clowns for the past 33 years as that is what got me started in this hobby.

Years of being on that other site, and paying attention to these posts regarding mags and cipro, it's a no brainer for me that it works, MOST of the time, and the times I see it not working have been usually people that did not have cipro on hand, and lagged on getting treatment started, OR people that did not follow proper procedure(The 100% WC's probably being number one, or not dosing cipro w/ lights out as cipro becomes inert in daylight)
So I've seen many times people half way read through protocol, did not follow exactly, failed, tried again later after reading or being told how to do it properly, had cipro on hand, started treatment at first sign, and success, pretty much always.

So of the times I witnessed cipro not working, from my observation it was user error

 

[cromag27]

Well, maybe this has not been explained scientifically in a book per say,

bingo.

 

[davocean]

bingo.

Well, there are a lot of things that are true that are not in books, and there are a lot of things in books that are not true.
I can probably find a book written by scientists claiming pluto is a planet...

 

[cromag27]

Well, there are a lot of things that are true that are not in books, and there are a lot of things in books that are not true.
I can probably find a book written by scientists claiming pluto is a planet...

not a fair comparison. in the case of planets, there has been scientific proof to show what was once thought to be true, is not. of course i don’t believe in conspiracy theories, aliens or or ufos. show me proof and maybe we’ll talk. the cipro battle lives on.

 

[davocean]

Well, my point is I would not discredit someone's efforts or contributions to our hobby just because they might not have letters following their name.

Cipro helps us keep anemones we used to have trouble keeping, I'm all for promoting that or advising it to help others achieve the same success.

 

[OrionN]

Dave is right. You will never find a study to see if jumping down a three story building will result in death due to smash skull or broken neck.
The vast majority of what we know in reefkeeping does not come from scientific studies.
From treatment of clams Pinched Mantel Diseases to various successful treatment of various pests. They are all come from trial and error and observations of pioneer reef keepers.
If some one does not want to use these knowledge it is their’s (and their animal) lost. It is really too bad. These animals deserves better care then dying in their tank.

 

[OrionN]

One thing my medicine professor told us at the start of the course, pointing to our text book;

“Only 50% of what in they text book is true. 50% will eventually prove to be false”

Never heard any wiser words. Ever since then I always look at published scientific papers with a little jaundice eyes and never blindly assume that what published in peer reviewed scientific journals to be completely correct.

 

[davocean]

^^ To that I say bingo.
And I don't mean to sound rude to cromag either I understand we are here learning through discussion, I know that sometimes is met w/ resistance.
The benefits of cipro were hashed out some time ago among many of us nem keepers on RC, most got past that and now you go on there and cipro has become accepted as standard protocol in acquiring mags and gigs.
I'm just one of those trying to put this info out to people here as well, seems many are unaware of it, or have not seen the great success numbers some of us have witnessed already.

 

[KrisReef]

Good (read “good” = valid ) observations are a foundation that science builds upon. A colorblind observer can confound experiements on spectral observations, but that does not necessarily totally discount what they can observe.

I was reading another thread before this one that mentioned Cipro and I’ve came looking for more details on this practice. Can someone provide a link to the treatment information for folks like me who find this thread and want the rest of the story? Please and thank you!

Thanks for the thread.

 

[OrionN]

There is a Cipro thread on this forum by Amoo who detail what he does. I originally wrote about antibiotic treatment for anemone in Reefcentral Anemone and Clownfish forum. The mods there also stickied it on there.
Since then have been numerous discussions and variations of how and what antibiotic.

At the time and now , I feel that most sick anemone was infected with some bacterial. Treat them with antibiotic would be helpful. At the time there were orcasionally mention of using antibiotic but never any “how” and at “what dose” to treat. I experimented with various antibiotics and dosages. Once I fine tuned it a little, the result was so impressive that I tried to disseminated the information hoping it will be of help.
There is no one place where you can find these information. Most likely you should go to where it start and go from there.

It should be easy to culture sick anemones to guide treatment but it would cost quite a bit. More so than I am willing to spend my time and money. I though about it, wrote to Kevin at LiveAquaria. He was willing to send me the anemones but I cannot afford the cost of cultures and the space to keep the anemone prior during and post treatment.

 

[KrisReef]

Got it, thanks.
Posting here for any other late comers.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-i-cipro.211822/

 

[zelik]

Hi! Sorry to derail from the convo, but I’ve been treating a carpet I have and so far day 3 things look much better! However, I’m curious about a few things:
1) how much light should I give it during treatment? I usually run AI prime on my dt but hospital tank is just run of the mill few strips of LED. Is that enough?
2) my anemone keeps spitting out some stuff that looks like dissolved food? Or gunk? Every day. Is that normal?

So far he looks less deflated, got even stickier, so I’m quite happy

 

[zelik]

Hi! Sorry to derail from the convo, but I’ve been treating a carpet I have and so far day 3 things look much better! However, I’m curious about a few things:
1) how much light should I give it during treatment? I usually run AI prime on my dt but hospital tank is just run of the mill few strips of LED. Is that enough?
2) my anemone keeps spitting out some stuff that looks like dissolved food? Or gunk? Every day. Is that normal?

So far he looks less deflated, got even stickier, so I’m quite happy

 

[Ellery]

Hi! Sorry to derail from the convo, but I’ve been treating a carpet I have and so far day 3 things look much better! However, I’m curious about a few things:
1) how much light should I give it during treatment? I usually run AI prime on my dt but hospital tank is just run of the mill few strips of LED. Is that enough?
2) my anemone keeps spitting out some stuff that looks like dissolved food? Or gunk? Every day. Is that normal?

So far he looks less deflated, got even stickier, so I’m quite happy

Normal treatment I have done was with as much full spectrum lighting as possible with the daily water changes and fresh cipro dosage. No feeding is necessary during this time frame while in a QT. It will discharge some waste but make sure to remove it from the QT to prevent spoiling the water.

Some of the issues I've seen with anemones is they try to digest food that maybe too big and if not dispelled will start rotting and building ammonia internally which may kill it. It's a good sign that it is dispelling waste since they are made mostly of water when plump.

Good luck

 

[zelik]

Thank you. Strangely mine keeps pushing its guts out around noon then goes back to normal an hour later, just not sure where it got all that gunk/food from. Day 3 so far, feeling good that it seems to be getting better but just making me nervous every time it pushes its stomach out.

 

[zelik]

Like this... what is that stuff?

 

[gig 'em]

Like this... what is that stuff?

It’s expelling zooxanthellae, not a good thing, but sometimes observed in treatment when the anemone is highly stressed. That gigantea anemones some shape though is a little concerning. It’s certainly not the natural shape and a sign that it is not healthy. I had one like that that expelled all its zoox and survived, but was bleached for a long time. I typically acclimate my anemones with lower light levels in the hospital tanks to avoid shocking the anemone with too much light and causing further bleaching. Indirect light seems to suffice IME. Best of luck, it’s a gorgeous anemone. I would hate to see it die.

 

[Ellery]

Make sure you have some good flow in the QT as well. Bob Fenner mentioned iodide treatment & glucose syrup treatments would also help from shipments but I definitely wouldn't mix treatments with Cipro if you've already started.