Trident Issue rant

[Mark Harnishfeger]

I have had my trident for a couple of weeks now and let it run for a bit before calibration. About a week ago I calibrated it and started paying more attention to the numbers. I also picked up a DOS at RAP NY which I got setup and running. My Alk reads about .4 to .6 higher than what my Hanna Alk DkH checker shows (9.27 on Trident vs 8.7 on Hanna DkH) and I had not compared against my Hanna Calcium checker. My Alk has been staying pretty good with me only dosing about 20mL of BRS 2 part but my Calcium has been staying at or near 400 so I have been trying to bump it to around 440. I have been dosing about 30 - 40mL everyday and the Trident does not show much movement of Calcium. I thought it was weird as I have never needed to dose that much in the past for Calcium but kept at it bumping the dose a bit more each day to bring it up and still it stays close to 400, give or take a bit. Today I tested with my Hanna checker and it shows Calc at 584. what the heck is going on with my Trident that it did not pick up these changes?? Everything seems to be doing fine in the tank but I am going to do a water change to bring it back down a bit. Not happy about this! Why spend $600 on a tester that does not test correctly??

I ordered some reagent the other day but the calibration fluid was out of stock. I went back in today and it was back in stock so I ordered a couple of bottles. Hopefully re-calibrating will fix the issue but this is very frustrating.

Anyone else experience troubles with their Trident?

It will be great if I can get it setup with the auto dosing but I'm a bit nervous about it now.

 

[Elder1945]

I assume there are a thousand or so variables that could explain this. Everyone I know that runs them around 10-11 people seem to love them for what they do. They are accurate to what they are calibrated to ( this is my understanding as i do not own one and use GHL and Ekoral)..

My understanding I would assume micro bubbles or hose placement?

 

[Jamie7907]

I could be wrong but I think calcium is calculation based off of magnesium derived from total hardness not an actual test for calcium?

 

[dz6t]

I could be wrong but I think calcium is calculation based off of magnesium derived from total hardness not an actual test for calcium?

Why you would think that? Very curious about it. Thanks

 

[Poriferabob]

From what I have noticed this appears to be a fairly common problem. Does anyone know, what is the tridents identified margin of error anyway?

 

[BonelessEvil]

From what I have noticed this appears to be a fairly common problem. Does anyone know, what is the tridents identified margin of error anyway?

I'm not sure if this is your question, but this line is from Neptune systems's Trident page:

The Trident tests consistently with a precision of +/- 0.05 dKh for Alkalinity and 15ppm for Calcium and Magnesium. Using any hobby-grade test kit on the market, even humans cannot perform the tests that consistently.

https://www.neptunesystems.com/products/expansion-modules/trident/

 

[Jamie7907]

Why you would think that? Very curious about it. Thanks

I was told this by Neptune. Although I can’t remember if it’s calcium or magnesium that is the calculation. It’s easy to tell that all three aren’t being tested for individually though from the number of reagents. Think about it, you have three reagents total; one for alkalinity and the other two are both marked for calcium and magnesium.

 

[Jamie7907]

Here is an explanation of how it works.

https://support.hach.com/app/answer...sed-to-determine-the-concentration-of-calcium

 

[dz6t]

That is a big concern for the accuracy of calcium and magnesium level. I hope they can come clear how these two tests are done and the chemistry behind it.
I yet to find an equation that can base on Alkalinity to estimate calcium or magnesium level.

 

[dz6t]

Is there a pH probe inside the machine for Alkalinity titration?

 

[Jamie7907]

No. It uses an eye to register a color change

 

[vangvace]

When you get the calibration fluid, use some of the leftover for your Hanna Checkers. Air in the lines or old reagents for the Hanna could explain the differences, but until tested it is shooting in the dark.

 

[kodo28]

Well from my experience the Hanna checker for the calcium is not consistent at all even when using the Hanna precision 1ml syringe.
I would maybe test calcium with another hobby test and compare the values.

 

[dz6t]

So it is using colorimetric testing instead of titration. I PASSED!

 

[Brian_68]

I'm not sure if this is your question, but this line is from Neptune systems's Trident page:

The Trident tests consistently with a precision of +/- 0.05 dKh for Alkalinity and 15ppm for Calcium and Magnesium. Using any hobby-grade test kit on the market, even humans cannot perform the tests that consistently.

https://www.neptunesystems.com/products/expansion-modules/trident/

Precision and accuracy in chemistry are not equal. Precision which is called out here is just testing the same sample more than once and comparing the previous readings. It has nothing to do with whether the readings are correct or not. It could be way off from the true reading but as long as it is repeatable. Accuracy is what you want to see the specs on and that tells you what we would want to see.

https://labwrite.ncsu.edu/Experimental Design/accuracyprecision.htm

 

[ca1ore]

My understanding is that calcium is not inferred, it is directly measured - after all, there is a calcium reagent bottle.

 

[Jamie7907]

Actually the reagent bottles say Ca/Mg, neither is solely for either.

 

[Mark Harnishfeger]

Got my new calibration fluid today and recalibrated it. Here are the results:
Before

After

Not sure what to believe but I will see how it goes. I checked my Alk after and Hanna showed 8.3 DkH so maybe the Trident is reading low or my Hanna it high. I tested the Calc after the calibration with my Hanna and Hanna shows 518 which is considerably higher than Trident. UGH

I am hoping to use my Trident with my DOS to do auto dosing but am a bit leary of it at the moment.

Maybe I will open a ticket with Neptune to get their opinion.

 

[Silver14SS]

Can you test the calibration fluid with the Hannas and share the results?

 

[roberthu526]

Precision and accuracy in chemistry are not equal. Precision which is called out here is just testing the same sample more than once and comparing the previous readings. It has nothing to do with whether the readings are correct or not. It could be way off from the true reading but as long as it is repeatable. Accuracy is what you want to see the specs on and that tells you what we would want to see.

https://labwrite.ncsu.edu/Experimental Design/accuracyprecision.htm

From what OP described the results doesn’t seem repeatable. Calcium reading stayed the same the entire time when the actual measurement bumped from 400 to 580.