Trident or not?

[Dom274]

I'll believe you about the solenoid issue, but I was really just spitbagging off the top of my head lol. Yes, some more though obviously needs to go into it.

Similarly, ORP can be affected by many variables other than phosphate/Nitrate.

With all due respect, IMO, this forum is full of people who do not understand the value of ORP. Yes, there are many variables at play here, but I believe the are several other reasons people here don't understand how ORP readings work. I'm no marine biologist, but I did work for a pool cleaning company that catered to large business accounts (Think the big community pools), for 15 years using ORP and PH probes for water quality monitoring and adjustments. When you check a pool's water quality twice a day every day from Memorial Day to Labor Day, you get good at recognizing the patterns of ORP readings and how the chemicals you are adding to the water would affect it. Suffice to say, I could walk into a pool room and tell you exactly what the chemical levels are via the ORP reading. There are a couple of things I believe the hobby is doing which reduces the effectiveness of the ORP and PH readings.

1 - ORP and PH probes are designed to work in a steady flow, around 30-50GPH. I use the inline plumbing mounts from BRS and run them inline of my return plumbing. For one, this greatly increases the probe's accuracy due to the steady water flow. Two, It cuts down the algae and other growth that accumulates on the probes that are just sitting in the sump, also significantly improving accuracy.

2 - I think that people's initial reaction is that ORP probes are worthless because ORP probes literally take 1-2 months to settle down and become accurate. It just is what it is, you have to wait.

3 - Over-thinking it. The analogy I used to use to explain ORP readings is to view ORP like an arbitrary sports rating, such as QB rating. Yes there are many variables that go into it, but you can absolutely use that number to accurately determine if your team won or not, or if your QB is having a good year or not. If your QB had a 120 rating for the game, there's a good chance you won the game. If your QB had a 45 rating for the game, most likely you lost. Is it 100% accurate? No. Is it 80%-90% accurate? Yes. Another way to look at it, is to stop worrying about all the things you don't know. Focus on the things you do know and systematically work from there. I hope that made sense... It did in my head at the time...

Also, there aren't as many variables as people think when we are talking about a mature tank run by someone with a pretty set maintenance and feeding routine. A mature tank, with a somewhat of a routine, essentially leaves only phosphates and nitrates as the variables. If you keep your keep your tank stable enough for SPS, I think you are completely underestimating the value of the ORP probe.

 

[CDavmd]

I'll believe you about the solenoid issue, but I was really just spitbagging off the top of my head lol. Yes, some more though obviously needs to go into it.



With all due respect, IMO, this forum is full of people who do not understand the value of ORP. Yes, there are many variables at play here, but I believe the are several other reasons people here don't understand how ORP readings work. I'm no marine biologist, but I did work for a pool cleaning company that catered to large business accounts (Think the big community pools), for 15 years using ORP and PH probes for water quality monitoring and adjustments. When you check a pool's water quality twice a day every day from Memorial Day to Labor Day, you get good at recognizing the patterns of ORP readings and how the chemicals you are adding to the water would affect it. Suffice to say, I could walk into a pool room and tell you exactly what the chemical levels are via the ORP reading. There are a couple of things I believe the hobby is doing which reduces the effectiveness of the ORP and PH readings.

1 - ORP and PH probes are designed to work in a steady flow, around 30-50GPH. I use the inline plumbing mounts from BRS and run them inline of my return plumbing. For one, this greatly increases the probe's accuracy due to the steady water flow. Two, It cuts down the algae and other growth that accumulates on the probes that are just sitting in the sump, also significantly improving accuracy.

2 - I think that people's initial reaction is that ORP probes are worthless because ORP probes literally take 1-2 months to settle down and become accurate. It just is what it is, you have to wait.

3 - Over-thinking it. The analogy I used to use to explain ORP readings is to view ORP like an arbitrary sports rating, such as QB rating. Yes there are many variables that go into it, but you can absolutely use that number to accurately determine if your team won or not, or if your QB is having a good year or not. If your QB had a 120 rating for the game, there's a good chance you won the game. If your QB had a 45 rating for the game, most likely you lost. Is it 100% accurate? No. Is it 80%-90% accurate? Yes. Another way to look at it, is to stop worrying about all the things you don't know. Focus on the things you do know and systematically work from there. I hope that made sense... It did in my head at the time...

Also, there aren't as many variables as people think when we are talking about a mature tank run by someone with a pretty set maintenance and feeding routine. A mature tank, with a somewhat of a routine, essentially leaves only phosphates and nitrates as the variables. If you keep your keep your tank stable enough for SPS, I think you are completely underestimating the value of the ORP probe.

I did not say ORP was worthless. I just pointed out that many other things in ADDITION to Nitrate and Phosphate can have an impact on ORP readings. Assuming that only those two parameters are in play because a tank is mature is just not accurate. I would not rely on ORP as the controller of GFO use or not- for that matter I won't use GFO period for many other reasons. It can be a useful measure and I understand it quite well- with all do respect I have a degree in Biochemistry and was involved a serious bench research prior to moving on to medicine.

With that said I do not want to get into a debate so I will step aside now.

 

[Dom274]

I did not say ORP was worthless. I just pointed out that many other things in ADDITION to Nitrate and Phosphate can have an impact on ORP readings. Assuming that only those two parameters are in play because a tank is mature is just not accurate. I would not rely on ORP as the controller of GFO use or not- for that matter I won't use GFO period for many other reasons. It can be a useful measure and I understand it quite well- with all do respect I have a degree in Biochemistry and was involved a serious bench research prior to moving on to medicine.

With that said I do not want to get into a debate so I will step aside now.

I'm sorry for offending you, it seems that no matter how hard I try, I always tick people off here. I had no intention of "debating" you. I was simply trying to have a conversation regarding ORP readings with people who appear to know what they are talking about. You have a degree in biochemistry... Perfect, that pretty much makes you an expert. I don't understand why it seems that the answer to any ORP question is always "something, something, too many variables" and no one can ever elaborate on why (Yes, I've read that popular guide. The name eludes me at the moment). I feel like any attempt to find ORP readings useful immediately gets shot down here. You are obviously much more knowledgeable about this than me and I was honestly hoping to be educated a little. Everyone jumps on the issues/limitations of ORP readings. Surely there are uses for it, I'd like to believe that Neptune just didn't throw that functionality in without it serving some purpose.

Again, sorry for offending you, I was honestly hoping to be educated.

 

[CDavmd]

I'm sorry for offending you, it seems that no matter how hard I try, I always **** people off here. I had no intention of "debating" you. I was simply trying to have a conversation regarding ORP readings with people who appear to know what they are talking about. You have a degree in biochemistry... Perfect, that pretty much makes you an expert. I don't understand why it seems that the answer to any ORP question is always "something, something, too many variables" and no one can ever elaborate on why (Yes, I've read that popular guide. The name eludes me at the moment). I feel like any attempt to find ORP readings useful immediately gets shot down here. You are obviously much more knowledgeable about this than me and I was honestly hoping to be educated a little. Everyone jumps on the issues/limitations of ORP readings. Surely there are uses for it, I'd like to believe that Neptune just didn't throw that functionality in without it serving some purpose.

Again, sorry for offending you, I was honestly hoping to be educated.

Not offended, and I apologize if I came across curt. I just was put off by the tone of "...Full of people who do not understand..." Definitely not an expert but I did study this stuff ad nauseam.

So ORP is a valuable tool in looking for general changes in a system, however our measurements frequently do not correlate with the expected calculated values. Just remember ORP is just a measure of chemicals wanting to gain or lose electrons. There are a myriad of chemical reactions that are occurring in our tanks. Some of these are basic chemistry acid base reactions however many are biochemical processes that are much more complex and involve many different compounds and steps. Some of these are irreversible others will require enzymes to push the reactions forward. Under certain conditions (pH, temperature, presence of other chemical species, etc.) the enzymes may not catalyze the reactions or may actually increase the reactions. This is just scratching the surface.....basically all these chemical reactions favoring or not favoring gain of electrons are going to be affected by pH, temperature, presence of metal ions, the solubility of substances in our systems, bacterial populations such as aerobic and anaerobic species, just to name a few. Certain reactions will couple others and their equilibrium state will further impact the overall ORP. Compound that with the nature of ORP probes, quality, and construction and you have a situation with too many variables at play. Yes ORP is valuable and it will give you a general view of what is going on in your system but to infer a Phosphate level and decide on the use of GFO is not a good idea.

Hope this helps.

 

[Thales]

I don't understand why it seems that the answer to any ORP question is always "something, something, too many variables" and no one can ever elaborate on why (Yes, I've read that popular guide. The name eludes me at the moment). I feel like any attempt to find ORP readings useful immediately gets shot down here.

Probably because ORP in aquaria has never really panned out, and it has been used/tried a lot. It hasn't shown much practical utility.
I was hoping that ORP would be effected by coral spawning, but it isn't. The only reason I care about ORP is because I run ozone - if something goes nutty, I want the ozone to shut off.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php

 

[CDavmd]

Probably because ORP in aquaria has never really panned out, and it has been used/tried a lot. It hasn't shown much practical utility.
I was hoping that ORP would be effected by coral spawning, but it isn't. The only reason I care about ORP is because I run ozone - if something goes nutty, I want the ozone to shut off.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php

...I just think of it as a general pulse on the system. Good to give you a heads up that something is wrong but no specifics.

 

[Thales]

Its the no specifics that worries me. ORP changes and people look for something to do, but there really isn't much to do unless there is something obvious going on - and if it is obvious, you prolly don't need ORP to tell you. I worry more that people chase ORP which is generally a confusing waste of time. YMMV.

 

[Whispers]

I got my trident and it was accurate out of the box .. once I calibrated it the numbers were off....I need to call support and see what I could do

 

[road_runner]

I got my trident and it was accurate out of the box .. once I calibrated it the numbers were off....I need to call support and see what I could do

Based on the few reviews out there this is common.
My prediction is due to the complicated peristaltic heads they have there. This is custome pump and maybe the production yield on it is not yet dialed in..
Hopefully they figure it out

 

[Water Dog]

I got my trident and it was accurate out of the box .. once I calibrated it the numbers were off....I need to call support and see what I could do

Did your calibration fluid leak in the bag? I wonder if this is due to the leaky bottles the calibration fluid was shipped in. I’m not sure how it is now, but there were many reports of leaky bottles and wet bags that the bottles were shipped in. This had to have some sort of effect because as stated by Neptune, the calibration fluid was only good for 8 hours once exposed to air.

 

[Jeff_H]

Correct I have no affiliation with Trident, I'm just a consumer. I was one of those on the release night that thought I had one from BRS but was later informed they had miscalculated stock. They send me one a week later with the next stock release. I set it up on my frag tank and let it run for a few days. The discrepancy between hanna and my other test kits was within the expected range of comparison. After calibration, they were even closer ( for those not familiar, you need to let the Trident run for a few days before calibrating. The first values may be off).

Not brave at all- After a couple weeks I let the DOS be controlled by the Trident. It has a built in failsafe. I told it I want the Alkalinity to be 8.5 and gave it a control range of .5- this means that the trident will continue to adjust the dosage ONLY between that Alkalinity range. I also let it adjust the dosage +/- 35% of the baseline dosage. If the Alkalinity deviates beyond 8 or 9 as per my +/- 0.5 control range then the DOS will revert to my baseline dosing amount. I have also set up an alarm if the Alkalinity is below 8 and above 9 so I will catch any issues. Similarly, you can set the Calcium and mine is set to maintain 440 +/- 50 with a 40% permissive dosage adjustment.

It has worked flawlessly for me and I am very happy with the stability. Much better than my previous testing 3x per week and adjusting dosages manually.

I was so pleased with the performance that I tried getting a second and I was lucky on that point- Just happened to be on BRS when they released a batch. I have it on my display and again the ability to see what is happening with my Alkalinity and the improved stability is very comforting.

Thanks for your detailed observations with your Tridents.... You're very luck to have two this early. I'm still on three waiting list!

Do you have to calibrate the unit every time you replace the reagents? If so, is this every month or two months assuming the 4 test per day? How long does it take?

One final question, did you see different reading after doing the calibration between a reagent calibration (not the initial setup)?

 

[CDavmd]

Thanks for your detailed observations with your Tridents.... You're very luck to have two this early. I'm still on three waiting list!

Do you have to calibrate the unit every time you replace the reagents? If so, is this every month or two months assuming the 4 test per day? How long does it take?

One final question, did you see different reading after doing the calibration between a reagent calibration (not the initial setup)?

Thanks! So as a matter of routine I do calibrate when I change out the three reagents. Since a calibration standard comes with each kit that is when I do it. My reagents lasted 6 weeks but I was testing more often than 4x per day initially while I dialed things in. I am expecting it to last 8 weeks this go around as I’m now settled on 4x.

What I found was that after changing the reagents my ca and mg values were slightly off from what they had been but after calibrating they were back on line.

Calibration is easy. You put the line in the vial hit the task in fusion and go do something else for 90 min. Come back and put the line back in the sump. That’s it.

Hope this is clear. Happy reefing.

 

[Jeff_H]

Thanks! So as a matter of routine I do calibrate when I change out the three reagents. Since a calibration standard comes with each kit that is when I do it. My reagents lasted 6 weeks but I was testing more often than 4x per day initially while I dialed things in. I am expecting it to last 8 weeks this go around as I’m now settled on 4x.

What I found was that after changing the reagents my ca and mg values were slightly off from what they had been but after calibrating they were back on line.

Calibration is easy. You put the line in the vial hit the task in fusion and go do something else for 90 min. Come back and put the line back in the sump. That’s it.

Hope this is clear. Happy reefing.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[RedSea500MaxS]

Good luck to you! I decided better to have the info and know than have a crash and loose everything I worked to get going.

I will go on every list now. Thx.

 

[CoralVue_Marketing]

@Jeff@CoralVue,
When you think the xepta will be available on CV? Any insights yet?

Pricing has not been announced for the USA as features and functionality are still being finalized. We are just as excited to bring XEPTA products to the US as hobbyists here are to use them!

We'll definitely announce pricing and availability once we know them for sure but feel free to check-in in the meantime. Or, if you'd like to subscribe to the CoralVue newsletter, we can send you updates. We appreciate your interest!

We'll have XEPTA products in our booth at Reef-A-Palooza California if anyone wants to stop by, take a looksie, and ask us questions.

Have a great day,

Jeff @ CoralVue

 

[User1]

My first response was if you have to ask then it probably isn't for you...

I do believe it is essential for some people to have more than others. I know I for one do not fall into that category today since I'm mostly into soft corals. However, I do have a few LPS and SPS test corals so should the Trident fairy call me I will pick one up to see how the data looks over the years as the tank matures. Another tool in the box and it just so happens to integrate into my controller ecosystem.

 

[road_runner]

Pricing has not been announced for the USA as features and functionality are still being finalized. We are just as excited to bring XEPTA products to the US as hobbyists here are to use them!

We'll definitely announce pricing and availability once we know them for sure but feel free to check-in in the meantime. Or, if you'd like to subscribe to the CoralVue newsletter, we can send you updates. We appreciate your interest!

We'll have XEPTA products in our booth at Reef-A-Palooza California if anyone wants to stop by, take a looksie, and ask us questions.

Have a great day,

Jeff @ CoralVue

Thank you jeff, I love how diversified your product lines are getting. You guys are giving us reefers options and bringing some of the best products in the market from all over the world...thank you!

 

[CoralVue_Marketing]

Thank you jeff, I love how diversified your product lines are getting. You guys are giving us reefers options and bringing some of the best products in the market from all over the world...thank you!

I think we're at another turning point in the hobby. It's a really exciting time to work in the aquarium industry and help usher in new technologies that will make our lives easier and our tanks healthier!

Jeff @ CoralVue

 

[craigbingman]

Recently am researching ion based probs
Mindstream use ion activated setups that react to water chemistry and change color then the device read the color off the strip to calculate the paramater.
Fascinating topic.
Ion probs not new technology. It's just recently got commoditized and probably were cheap enough to be used in the industey.
These probs contain gold since gold is hyper sensitive to chemistry...this is simple terms ofcourse am still learning about these probs.

Hi Ohashimz,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Everything sounds good on paper, but we don't really know anything about limitations of things we haven't used before. I haven't used an ISE for a while, but I have used them. They certainly aren't without their own potential issues, drawbacks, and lifetime issues. In preparing these comments, I looked at the manuals for a couple of Orion ISE electrodes. For calcium ion, a factor of ten difference in calcium concentration gives about 27mV change in the electrode potential. So a 9% change in calcium concentration gives only 1 mV signal. 9% change in calcium concentration is analytically a big deal, and some would argue that amount of difference in calcium concentrations has husbandry implications. Reading ISEs to a required degree of accuracy is more demanding than giving a spitball pH number, which is all most systems really manage to do. These electrodes have the same electrical interference issues that pH electrodes have, although the cross-section for that kind of interference could be minimized by good instrument design. ISE membranes wear and need to be replaced every few months in a lab environment, and I think we can all agree that continuous immersion in seawater with stuff living in it (and potentially on the membrane) is a more challenging situation than most lab use. In my lab experience ISEs needed to be recalibrated pretty frequently, like more than once a day, so that seems like a potential challenge as well. These electrodes are all somewhat sensitive to overall salt concentration (some like to say ionic strength) and those kinds of general junction potential changes due to salinity fluctuations are in the same ballpark as the changes in calcium ion concentration we expect from reef aquariums, which is probably why it was necessary to build a sodium ion electrode into the system, for ionic strength effect corrections. Added to that is the fact that ion selective electrodes are just that, selective, not exclusive, and one can easily imagine that there are some pretty complex matrix effects here that need to be carefully corrected to give good results.

Maybe all of this has been overcome. But I'm waiting to see an instrument and before having an opinion about it.

But there is absolutely no a priori reason why ISEs would necessarily give superior results to an autotitrator.

There is always a tendency to have a rosy view of any new technology in advance. And they all have their own quirks and limitations once they arrive. So it isn't really fair to slam on autotitrators because they use peristaltic pumps, and we all know about peristaltic pump potential issues, and give ISEs a clean pass because you and many other people have never used one before. The amount of raw signal available in a colorimetric titration from a photodiode potentially dwarfs the fragile signal from an ISE. Does that mean autotitrators are superior? Not automatically. It all comes down to details of the implementation and support.

And I really don't know what you mean by "these probs (sic) contain gold since gold is hyper sensitive to chemistry..."

Craig

 

[craigbingman]

Based on the few reviews out there this is common.
My prediction is due to the complicated peristaltic heads they have there. This is custome pump and maybe the production yield on it is not yet dialed in..
Hopefully they figure it out

The only Trident I've seen in the flesh was Jim's prototype at MACNA. That said, there wasn't anything complicated about the peristaltic pump. Peristaltic pumps are some of the most simple and most reliable lab kit out there. Fluid flow selectors are pretty standard stuff in lab applications, too. Perhaps that's what you were referring to when you say the pump is complicated.

Have you spent any time in an actual chemical or biochemical research lab? You seem enthusiastic but "under informed."