Tropic Marin Carbon Dosing

[rynosreef]

Hey all, this isn’t something I’m personally considering using at the moment, but I found their explanation of carbon dosing interesting.

Basically their explanation of carbon dosing puts emphasis on the bacteria consuming phosphates, thereby allowing corals to more easily utilize phosphates for growth by consuming that bacteria. The reduction of NO3 and PO4 is described as more of a side effect.

He starts explaining it around the 31 minute mark in this video



I haven’t heard it explained that way before.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure that is the primary mechanism, but I'm sure it contributes. Uptake of bacteria by filter feeders is the main reason i chose to dose vinegar.

 

[12gallonsofhex]

Hey all, this isn’t something I’m personally considering using at the moment, but I found their explanation of carbon dosing interesting.

Basically their explanation of carbon dosing puts emphasis on the bacteria consuming phosphates, thereby allowing corals to more easily utilize phosphates for growth by consuming that bacteria. The reduction of NO3 and PO4 is described as more of a side effect.

He starts explaining it around the 31 minute mark in this video



I haven’t heard it explained that way before.

I have listened to that presentation twice and would like to try carbon dosing for coral nutrition and nutrient control. Will definitely be using Tropic Marins seaweed based carbon dosing products. I hope it works as well as described.

 

[ichthyoid]

I will be using Tropic Marin’s All for Reef, (DIY version) with my current build. The primary carbon source is calcium formate.

Are you referring to one of their other products on the ‘seaweed based carbon’?

 

[12gallonsofhex]

I will be using Tropic Marin’s All for Reef, (DIY version) with my current build. The primary carbon source is calcium formate.

Are you referring to one of their other products on the ‘seaweed based carbon’?

I was referring to their bio pellets and one of their carbon dosing products, maybe plus NP?, that Lou Ekus describes as a seaweed based carbon source. It is a less aggressive way of carbon dosing according to one of his presentations. He stated that it is harder to over dose, and so less likely to feed the unwanted bacterias like cyano.

 

[minus9]

I'm currently using Elimi-NP (a very small amount), but it really helped to turn my tank around.

 

[rynosreef]

My understanding is All for Reef is used for Calcium, Alk, Mag and trace element management and yep by using calcium formate. I don’t believe it’s an organic carbon source though.

Yep I’m referring to their organic carbon sources. Most of the time I hear organic carbon dosing discussed it’s centered around reducing high NO3 and PO4. Some are seaweed based products like the biopellets and np actif it seems, and others I believe are from other sources.

 

[rynosreef]

I'm currently using Elimi-NP (a very small amount), but it really helped to turn my tank around.

Awesome! Was your tank suffering from high nutrients?

I find it interesting that Tropic Marin has an assortment of carbon dosing products centered around your specific phosphate level.

In the past my thinking on the subject was carbon dosing is solely for high bioload systems to attain ULNS levels. My tank now has quite a low bioload and keeping detectable NO3 and PO4 is more of my struggle.

 

[Rybren]

My understanding is All for Reef is used for Calcium, Alk, Mag and trace element management and yep by using calcium formate. I don’t believe it’s an organic carbon source though.

Bacteria (and perhaps corals) break down the formate resulting in a carbon-dosing like mechanism. Perhaps Randy can explain the chemistry - I know that I can't.

I can tell you; however, that I had to stop dosing my DIY NOPOX when I started using calcium formate (Carbocalcium). The combination of the two products drove the nitrates down to undetectable levels. I stopped the NOPOX and my nitrates went back to 3-5ppm.

 

[ichthyoid]

Calcium formate is an organic carbon source.

It has a single atom of carbon, which yields a lower amount of energy for the bacteria & so limits their growth.

It is metabolized by specific types of bacteria, likely methanogens which specialize in single carbon compounds.

Edit: it’s actually two formates attached to a single calcium, to be accurate. So 2 carbons are involved.

 

[rynosreef]

Bacteria (and perhaps corals) break down the formate resulting in a carbon-dosing like mechanism. Perhaps Randy can explain the chemistry - I know that I can't.

I can tell you; however, that I had to stop dosing my DIY NOPOX when I started using calcium formate (Carbocalcium). The combination of the two products drove the nitrates down to undetectable levels. I stopped the NOPOX and my nitrates went back to 3-5ppm.

Calcium formate is an organic carbon source.

It has a single atom of carbon, which yields a lower amount of energy for the bacteria & so limits their growth.

It is metabolized by specific types of bacteria, likely methanogens, which specialize in single carbon compounds.

Okay cool. I didn’t realize it worked that way.

 

[ScottR]

I'm not sure that is the primary mechanism, but I'm sure it contributes. Uptake of bacteria by filter feeders is the main reason i chose to dose vinegar.

What’s the difference between dosing vodka and vinegar? Is one superior? I’ve always assumed vodka was a better choice as vinegar can lower pH.

 

[ichthyoid]

So, great questions!
Vodka (ethanol) and vinegar (acetic acid) both have 2 carbons, which metabolically yield more energy and consequently more bacterial growth.

They also yield twice the amount of CO2, which affect pH & alkalinity. So, less bang for your buck, so to speak.

It’s also not uncommon with high demand tanks using vodka or vinegar, to see strings of bacteria or clumping in a sand bed. You are less likely to see that with calcium formate.

Fwiw,
you can mix vinegar with calcium hydroxide to make calcium acetate. This is similar to calcium formate, only with an extra carbon (methyl group). The calcium acetate avoids the drop in pH by reacting the acid before adding it to your tank. You also get some soluble calcium as part of the package.

Craig Bingman & Randy have both written excellent articles on calcium acetate & the chemistry involved.

I ran DIY calcium acetate for a while successfully, on a 40 gal breeder system.

 

[ichthyoid]

I was referring to their bio pellets and one of their carbon dosing products, maybe plus NP?, that Lou Ekus describes as a seaweed based carbon source. It is a less aggressive way of carbon dosing according to one of his presentations. He stated that it is harder to over dose, and so less likely to feed the unwanted bacterias like cyano.

I will be running AFR on my current build from start up. It will be a fishless cycle, using the TM Plus NP as a nitrogen & phosphorous source.

Reason being that TM uses an organic ligand bonded to the N & P which should prevent spontaneous precipitation of P onto rocks, heaters, pumps, etc.

Bacteria should have to free the N & P up using enzymes, is my theory. So it stays in solution & available until consumed. We will see?

 

[ichthyoid]

This is a quick summary video for the TM carbon dosing products-

 

[minus9]

Awesome! Was your tank suffering from high nutrients?

I find it interesting that Tropic Marin has an assortment of carbon dosing products centered around your specific phosphate level.

In the past my thinking on the subject was carbon dosing is solely for high bioload systems to attain ULNS levels. My tank now has quite a low bioload and keeping detectable NO3 and PO4 is more of my struggle.

Not crazy high nutrients, but I was lacking adequate bacteria, so my corals were suffering a bit. This is the first tank that I set up with a majority of dry rock (although I cured it for months with other live rock) so my sps were never really happy until I started carbon dosing with TM. Right now I'm dosing 0.5mL of Elimi-NP in my 90g. NO3 is around 1ppm to 2ppm and PO4 is anywhere between .2ppm and .13ppm.

 

[minus9]

Also, my main reason for starting carbon dosing was coral health/benefit and not nutrient control.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, my main reason for starting carbon dosing was coral health/benefit and not nutrient control.

That was a large part of why I started vinegar dosing, except my main concern was not corals, which seemed fine in my tank, but the growth of organisms that really rely on filter feeding: sponges.

 

[User1]

That was a large part of why I started vinegar dosing, except my main concern was not corals, which seemed fine in my tank, but the growth of organisms that really rely on filter feeding: sponges.

I've never dosed vinegar, sugar, or vodka. Only 2 part and now TM AFR. Your comment on filter feeding and sponges use of vinegar is interesting. Is it possible to dose vinegar only enough to feed those organisms? Interesting enough i tested phosphates yesterday using Hanna's ULR 736 and it came back reading 33 ppb or 0.1 ppm.

I'm not trying to lower phosphates but I am interested in the food possibilities and if it would be worth while to consider. In any case I've never looked at it as food but rather a means to lower nutrients unless I've always misunderstood how it works (which is probably the case).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've never dosed vinegar, sugar, or vodka. Only 2 part and now TM AFR. Your comment on filter feeding and sponges use of vinegar is interesting. Is it possible to dose vinegar only enough to feed those organisms? Interesting enough i tested phosphates yesterday using Hanna's ULR 736 and it came back reading 33 ppb or 0.1 ppm.

I'm not trying to lower phosphates but I am interested in the food possibilities and if it would be worth while to consider. In any case I've never looked at it as food but rather a means to lower nutrients unless I've always misunderstood how it works (which is probably the case).

I was not intending the vinegar to be consumed directly by the sponges, although it is taken up by many organisms. I was intending the bacteria top be the consumer and the sponges eat the bacteria. Just as was mentioned above for corals.