Ugly stage and phosphate levels

[THE REEF WHISPER]

Friend

Yes, friend, I'd like to believe. I do my best to be respectful to all members here, but when you post things that I strongly feel are wrong, I need to say something, in case someone else finds these posts in the future. This is a public forum, and we may not always agree, but I welcome your replies, friend

EDIT: @THE REEF WHISPER this reply was not aimed at you; sorry

Stop being rude I mean

 

[Fish Fan]

Yes, you've given me some reassurance that I can keep riding this out and confirms what I was thinking was going on in my tank. As for all of the other comments above. I'll be honest I'm confused lol!

Friend, I'm very sorry you're confused, and I'm sorry if perhaps my replies have made you more confused

Years ago, we strived to keep tanks at nearly zero nitrate and phosphate because we (correctly!) assumed that this would limit ugly algae. It turns out that this was true! However, coral live with a type of algae inside of them, and we have since learned that keeping tanks at zero nitrate and/or phosphate is detrimental to coral health. We know now that keeping at least measurable levels of both parameters is better than running them at zero like what was suggested years ago.

If there's anything I can do to help you here, please let me know (you can PM me if needed). I don't want to argue with another poster here on your thread, that's obviously not helping you, and I want to help you

 

[aus1230]

Friend, I'm very sorry you're confused, and I'm sorry if perhaps my replies have made you more confused

Years ago, we strived to keep tanks at nearly zero nitrate and phosphate because we (correctly!) assumed that this would limit ugly algae. It turns out that this was true! However, coral live with a type of algae inside of them, and we have since learned that keeping tanks at zero nitrate and/or phosphate is detrimental to coral health. We know now that keeping at least measurable levels of both parameters is better than running them at zero like what was suggested years ago.

If there's anything I can do to help you here, please let me know (you can PM me if needed). I don't want to argue with another poster here on your thread, that's obviously not helping you, and I want to help you

Oh no. I wasn’t saying your comments confused me. I was referring to some of the comments in here who have told me I need to be at 0.

 

[Fish Fan]

Stop being rude I mean

Rude? Like by calling you "friend" and politely pointing out things that I take a different opinion with? If you'd like to discuss this further, please message me directly. The OP has already stated they are confused, and I feel that our bickering is just confusing them more.

 

[Fish Fan]

Oh no. I wasn’t saying your comments confused me. I was referring to some of the comments in here who have told me I need to be at 0.

I know, and I'm so sorry!!

Please post back with any questions, and if I can't give you a solid answer that helps you, I know who to call in that can help

Please don't leave here out of frustration with some replies!

 

[ZC aquatics]

Are your phosphate levels increasing still?

 

[painter1982]

Phosphate need to be a 0

If you like Dino’s then zero should work. You gotta have nutrients in your water if you want coral long term.

 

[Fish Fan]

You gotta have nutrients in your water if you want coral long term.

^Well said!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Phosphate need to be a 0

Phosphate should be above 0 ppm, as should nitrate. Ultra low nutrient levels can contribute to issues, just as high nutrient levels can.

 

[Fish Fan]

Phosphate should be above 0 ppm, as should nitrate. Ultra low nutrient levels can contribute to issues, just as high nutrient levels can.

Thank you for your help here, Bean!

 

[Kasrift]

Not trying to pile on, but I feel like some context will help the conversation.

This is my 32g which will be 4 yrs old this October. I have grown just about everything in the tank, including SPS acropora.

Since it is a small system with no sump, even with weekly water change I have high nutrients. I ran them low for a long time, but then found out that with high alk consumption I needed more nutrients.

My phosphates run at around .2 or higher. They are high at this moment because I added fish temporarily to clear out a QT tank before I moved them to the 200g. I had no corals suffer from higher phosphates.

When I started my reefing journey, I read all about ultra low nutrients and figured that was the goal. I think you can color acro well with it, but it is walking a fine line too since if you bottom out nutrients it will stress SPS easily. I consider it like alkalinity. People can run 7alk or 12 alk, but you are at the extremes of both ends, that means a swing down or up at the extremes can be detrimental. People that run 8 or 9 alk have a buffer on either side. Same thing with phosphates. If you run .03 ultra low, you can bottom out easily. If you run .1, you can move in either direction more safely.

 

[CHSUB]

running a tank at a zero-level of either of these parameters is very old news, and not what we strive for now

Near zero hadn't been the gold standard for a bit

we have since learned that keeping tanks at zero nitrate and/or phosphate is detrimental to coral health

Pointing out that it has never been accepted that zero nutrients was the “goal” and that something was learned in the last few years. Nutrient requirements have never been in question. In the past, hobby test kit resolution was very poor and anything over readable was enough or in many cases too much. PO4, for example, started at .25ppm on my first hobby kit, iirc. I still prefer no3 at undetectable with anything but Hanna Low Range.

If you like Dino’s then zero should work

If we are pointing out falsehoods, this would be first. Dino’s = zero is only based on hobby observations and has zero actual supporting evidence. Zero = death!

 

[Fish Fan]

Pointing out that it has never been accepted that zero nutrients was the “goal” and that something was learned in the last few years. Nutrient requirements have never been in question. In the past, hobby test kit resolution was very poor and anything over readable was enough or in many cases too much. PO4, for example, started at .25ppm on my first hobby kit, iirc. I still prefer no3 at undetectable with anything but Hanna Low Range.

I started salt water in the mid 80's. I promise there was a time when people tried for zero nitrates and phosphates. What changed was that back then filtration was not as efficient, and nobody really *could* get to zero NO3/PO4. As filtration got better, and more people began to achieve zero NO3/PO4, it became apparent that this was not healthy for the corals.

Thank you for your reply!

 

[CHSUB]

I started salt water in the mid 80's. I promise there was a time when people tried for zero nitrates and phosphates. What changed was that back then filtration was not as efficient, and nobody really *could* get to zero NO3/PO4. As filtration got better, and more people began to achieve zero NO3/PO4, it became apparent that this was not healthy for the corals.

Thank you for your reply!

If we are doing resumes, my first job was at Pet City in Seabrook NH in 1980 where I maintained the fresh and saltwater displays. You can verify this with Tom S who owns it now, we were both employees back then. On a hobby test kit zero no3 has and will always be desirable in a feed reef aquarium, that has not changed. Diagnosis of reef problems with hobby test kits, especially no3, is overvalued and mostly false. I’ve been following the advice written by J Sprung in his book published in 1994 and very little is different today except the belief of the “New Way”.

 

[Fish Fan]

If we are doing resumes, my first job was at Pet City in Seabrook NH in 1980 where I maintained the fresh and saltwater displays. You can verify this with Tom S who owns it now, we were both employees back then. On a hobby test kit zero no3 has and will always be desirable in a feed reef aquarium, that has not changed. Diagnosis of reef problems with hobby test kits, especially no3, is overvalued and mostly false. I’ve been following the advice written by J Sprung in his book published in 1994 and very little is different today except the belief of the “New Way”.

The goal for many reefers in the way back was zero nitrate/phosphate. We can agree to disagree, I see no value in arguing about what reefing was like 40 years ago. I think we both agree that corals do best with at least measurable levels of nitrate/phosphate, and that's what I recommend here

 

[backbayreef]

OP: looks like the tank is relative young so I think you should be patient and look at the "ugly phase" in its totality and not jump in the deep end and focus only on phosphates? As you've discovered on your previous tank, it's "natural" during this phase for the algae & bacteria bloom to take hold. I assumed you've started with new, dry rocks vs all live rocks? If the latter, you should have enough beneficial bacteria to provide biological filtration to keep N&P at bay; avoiding the ugly phase completely. Keep in mind that this is temporary and will go away on its own while your tank establishes its cycle.

What you can do:
1. Have patience - will go away in a few weeks! ;)
2. Introduce bio diversity into your tank (for me, it's more live rocks). You can grab a few from your other tank, if possible?
3. Add CUC - I like urchins and trochus snails (don't like turbos since they can get huge and knock over stuff)
4. Limit your light intensity & duration
5. Turkey baster crappy stuff formed on rocks and remove with socks
6. Source water: assume you got a good RODI and not using tap?

Good luck & enjoy the journey... we've all been here before.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don’t think it is generally a good plan to try to deal with problem algae by limiting nutrients since it may need to be low enough in many tanks to limit corals.

A better clean up crew is the way to go, though in a new tank you may need to weather the uglies no matter what if you started with dry rock.

My phosphate target level is 0.1 to 0.3 ppm and nitrate of 5 to 50 ppm.

I discuss ranges here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randy’s-thoughts-on-nutrient-target-ranges.1087/

 

[fish_collector]

This thread is painful to read. No need to walk on eggshells, just say what’s on your mind.

FWIW this is where my tank typically rides at.

 

[i cant think]

I've been reading on the ugly phase a little since my 40 gallon is taking longer than my 15 gallon tank did (in my opinion). And everything that I've been reading says that lower phosphates keep the ugly phase down. This last week I've been tracking my phosphate levels a little more and I've definitely seen an increase from a day after I did my water change with it being at .07ppm 3 days ago and just did one tonight with my phosphate at .12. According to BSRtv's "normal parameters" video it's normal to keep them .05-.15. But by looking at my coral it looks the best it has in a while and i'm just trying to learn more about these numbers and how they're flowing. For reference here's some other dates with tests numbers
7/3/2025: .03
7/10/2025: .05
7/12/2025: .04
7/18/2025: .07
7/21/2025: .12 (my tank and my coral have looked the best at this number)

I do realize that a weekly test is more common but I decided to test phosphates a little more to look at the trend. I also got these numbers around the same time of day.
The picture with it all bent over was tested on 7/12 and when it looks good is tested today.

Take what I do with a pinch of salt as it has several other factors which counter in, but I personally aim to keep my Phosphates and Nitrates at a 1 to 10 ratio, no matter how high they are.

My Phosphates in my 5 foot tank are at 1.0 (yes, 1.0 and not 0.1) with my nitrates as low as 10 to keep both Acros and LPS happy. But that 10 NO4 never stays that low, often it will be found at 25-30.

And my Phosphates, well in a coral tray they are above 3.0 and my nitrates are again, 25-30. But, this coral tray has some of the healthiest and brightest acros I’ve ever had along with much healthier LPS.
I mean, take a look for yourself at this Alveopora I have culturing. This came out of my nano and went into the Coral tray at my shop to eventually frag once it grew large enough (it heavily outgrew my nano, and when I took it out I didn’t have any flowerpots in my 5 foot so it was quite risky).

 

[Bruttall]

Couple of things I noticed on this thread, 0 Phos will crash your tank and kill all your coral, Phos is part of the Food coral require, no Food = Dead Coral.

BRS saying .05 to .15 is a good range is BallPark Parameter at best. It's a baseline starting point. My Hanna ranges from .02 to .28 all the, while my ICP tests show a pretty consistent .12 po4 reading. My point being you can't put a lot of faith into a Tester. Some corals, especially Zoa's and Paly's like a "Dirty Tank" (higher levels of PO4).

People with Acro tanks will tell you .02 is the ideal and aim for that, But from my experience, that is to low for my Tank. I am softy dominate though. very little sps in my system.

Now, I do have to Dose to control po4 in my system, I use a Tri-Lanthanum Chloride reduced 50ml into 1450ml rodi, and add about 18ml a day via my Neptune Apex, but I have somewhere near 50 fish in my 300g. My Bio-load is impressive. I feed 2 full sheets of Nori a day plus Flake in AM and Frozen at Night.

I like the 1 to 10 ratio po4 to Nitrates, But as long as they are Close and my Tank looks good I do not feel the need to chase Ideal Numbers! Close is good enough IMO.