Understanding AFR vs Two-Part

[ecas12]

Have had a torch for about three weeks now and am receiving 5 zoas from WWC tomorrow. I imagine this is enough coral to start considering dosing (90 gallon system), so I want to understand exactly how to prepare for this. I purchased AFR before realizing that it is actually recommended to reach stable parameters with two part before using it. So, let's say I want these target parameters:

Alk: 7.8
Mg: 1300
Ca: 400
pH: 8.2

As of Feb 18, my current parameters are:

Nitrate: 24.9 (trying to bring down, Hanna)
Phosphate: 0.25 (also trying to bring down, Hanna)
Alk: 7.8 (Hanna)
Mg: 1280 (Red Sea Test Kit)
Ca: 400 (Red Sea Test Kit)
pH: 8.3 (Salifert)

Would I first raise the Alk, Mg, and Ca with, for instance, Tropic Marin Balling A&B, reach my target parameters, and then switch to AFR and use that to maintain these? In other words, do I want to match as close as possible to the ratio of elements I mentioned with two-part before using AFR, which I presume increases all parameters at the same rate? Does AFR act similarly to the Part C of the Balling Method where it contains the ions that will prevent accumulation of sodium chloride? I plan on daily testing once I have the new zoas added so I can get a sense of consumption patterns for each parameter. I am also currently using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt and do 10-15% weekly water changes.

 

[Reef.]

You can start using it now, your parameters are all but the same, do a test for alk, then another 24 hours later, use the AFR dosing calculator to see how much you need to add to add back in the amount the tank is using in 24 hours.
AFR will add the correct ratio that tanks generally uses, it does not add equal amounts of all 3 elements, match the alk and calcium normally runs at about the same rate, mag is normally less used so AFR adds less.

You only need to check alk daily until you get a feel for it, calcium and mag don’t need to be tested daily, every 2 weeks or even monthly will be fine, if you test those daily you will not see a gradual raise or fall, testing for those are not as precise of testing alk, you may need to add some mag or calcium every few months, just to keep within range…you don’t also want to be aiming for a precise number for calcium or mag, yes have a number in mind but with say 30-50 under or over your target will be fine.

Remember too that the alk in AFR takes 2-3 days to develop in the tank, so keep that in mind when testing, calcium and mag will show on a test straight away after adding.

 

[Pistondog]

Im with @Reef., start now, slow.
Your po4 and no3 arent bad.
Red sea coral pro mixes higher alk than you want, switch to red sea blue bucket.

 

[areefer01]

Before dosing anything or manually correcting one should understand what their consumption rate is and then see how the water change effects it. Then go from there. Your 15% weekly water change may meet the consumption rate.

You didn't say how long the display as been up, size, or coral, fish, stocking.

 

[ecas12]

Before dosing anything or manually correcting one should understand what their consumption rate is and then see how the water change effects it. Then go from there. Your 15% weekly water change may meet the consumption rate.

You didn't say how long the display as been up, size, or coral, fish, stocking.

My plan was to watch consumption before doing anything. Display has been up since August. I did mention the entire system is 90 gallons, there are currently 5 fish: 1 clown, a one spot foxface, starry blenny, YWG, and pintail wrasse. Only coral currently in there is a torch but I am unsure of the exact type.

 

[ecas12]

You can start using it now, your parameters are all but the same, do a test for alk, then another 24 hours later, use the AFR dosing calculator to see how much you need to add to add back in the amount the tank is using in 24 hours.
AFR will add the correct ratio that tanks generally uses, it does not add equal amounts of all 3 elements, match the alk and calcium normally runs at about the same rate, mag is normally less used so AFR adds less.

You only need to check alk daily until you get a feel for it, calcium and mag don’t need to be tested daily, every 2 weeks or even monthly will be fine, if you test those daily you will not see a gradual raise or fall, testing for those are not as precise of testing alk, you may need to add some mag or calcium every few months, just to keep within range…you don’t also want to be aiming for a precise number for calcium or mag, yes have a number in mind but with say 30-50 under or over your target will be fine.

Remember too that the alk in AFR takes 2-3 days to develop in the tank, so keep that in mind when testing, calcium and mag will show on a test straight away after adding.

Thanks for the info. I will stick to just daily Alk testing then, and will also remember that AFR will take some time to raise my Alk level.

 

[ecas12]

Im with @Reef., start now, slow.
Your po4 and no3 arent bad.
Red sea coral pro mixes higher alk than you want, switch to red sea blue bucket.

Yeah, I had purchased coral pro before I realized what I wanted to have in the tank. Once I run out of my coral pro I will be switching to blue bucket.

 

[bushdoc]

Few things:

• Zoas will not increase your Ca or Alkalinity consumption, they don’t have calcium carbonate skeletons
• your relatively low dKH in view of using Red sea coral pro salt is puzzling- biggest consumption of Ca and Alkalinity is by your torch. Is it so big?
• I would triple check if your Alkalinity is 7.8, I do not have experience with Hana Alkalinity checker, I use Salifert ( as many reefers) for that

 

[Reef.]

Few things:

• Zoas will not increase your Ca or Alkalinity consumption, they don’t have calcium carbonate skeletons
• your relatively low dKH in view of using Red sea coral pro salt is puzzling- biggest consumption of Ca and Alkalinity is by your torch. Is it so big?
• I would triple check if your Alkalinity is 7.8, I do not have experience with Hana Alkalinity checker, I use Salifert ( as many reefers) for that

I agree, also alk in Red Sea pro has very high alk, tho a new tank alk can fluctuate widely even without corals uptaking alk.

I meant to add in my reply that the amount of corals you are adding is very low, you could up that more if you wished, a torch and a couple of Zoas in a 90g is not a lot.

I would also suggest moving to Red Sea blue bucket, once your alk settles down, 11.5 is at the top end of the alk range, blue bucket is nicely in the middle, so a drop or a raise in alk will not be as big an issue (think it’s cheaper too so a plus plus).

If you are aiming for alk at 7.8, no point adding new salt water that is at 11.5, better to have salt that is nearer what you run your tank at.

 

[areefer01]

My plan was to watch consumption before doing anything. Display has been up since August. I did mention the entire system is 90 gallons, there are currently 5 fish: 1 clown, a one spot foxface, starry blenny, YWG, and pintail wrasse. Only coral currently in there is a torch but I am unsure of the exact type.

A single coral? A couple new frags? Water change should manage that thus my asking about the consumption rate and trend. Sounds like you have plenty of time.

 

[Kasrift]

Few things:

• Zoas will not increase your Ca or Alkalinity consumption, they don’t have calcium carbonate skeletons
• your relatively low dKH in view of using Red sea coral pro salt is puzzling- biggest consumption of Ca and Alkalinity is by your torch. Is it so big?
• I would triple check if your Alkalinity is 7.8, I do not have experience with Hana Alkalinity checker, I use Salifert ( as many reefers) for that

Agreed. I was thinking the same thing with just a torch having a calcium skeleton. The other thing that would be consuming it in their tanks could be Coraline algae.

 

[ecas12]

Few things:

• Zoas will not increase your Ca or Alkalinity consumption, they don’t have calcium carbonate skeletons
• your relatively low dKH in view of using Red sea coral pro salt is puzzling- biggest consumption of Ca and Alkalinity is by your torch. Is it so big?
• I would triple check if your Alkalinity is 7.8, I do not have experience with Hana Alkalinity checker, I use Salifert ( as many reefers) for that

I agree, also alk in Red Sea pro has very high alk, tho a new tank alk can fluctuate widely even without corals uptaking alk.

I meant to add in my reply that the amount of corals you are adding is very low, you could up that more if you wished, a torch and a couple of Zoas in a 90g is not a lot.

I would also suggest moving to Red Sea blue bucket, once your alk settles down, 11.5 is at the top end of the alk range, blue bucket is nicely in the middle, so a drop or a raise in alk will not be as big an issue (think it’s cheaper too so a plus plus).

If you are aiming for alk at 7.8, no point adding new salt water that is at 11.5, better to have salt that is nearer what you run your tank at.

I am not 100% sure why my Alk is so low relative to the advertised value on the Red Sea Salt, but if I had to guess, I would imagine it is because of the way I was preparing the salt prior to the addition of corals. I was ignorant enough at first to not follow the directions on the bucket when I first started mixing the salt, and have only started mixing it according to the instructions on the bucket after I had added the torch, which was my first coral. I remember watching a BRS video showing that the Alk in the Coral Pro salt degraded if it was mixed continually beyond the two hour maximum Red Sea recommends, and I used to store my salt in larger quantities unheated with active power heads for long periods of time, so that may be why the Alk dropped so much, unless there is another reason for the Alk decline. I have used both Hanna and Red Sea to confirm my Alkalinity and have gotten identical results from both. I don't have any noticeable coraline blooms except on a few inverts, so I can't imagine that is the primary contributor to the lower Alk levels.

 

[bushdoc]

I used to store Red Sea Coral Pro salt for month at the time when I was doing AWC, this might be a problem. I had lots of precipitation in holding tank.I think they are supposed to be stored for just few days. I use Aquaforest salt now , wchich mixes instantly and it’s ready to be added to DT in 15 min. Apparently Red Sea reformulated their salts too and you don have to wait 24h to add your mixture to DT.

 

[Sidsreef]

Have had a torch for about three weeks now and am receiving 5 zoas from WWC tomorrow. I imagine this is enough coral to start considering dosing (90 gallon system), so I want to understand exactly how to prepare for this. I purchased AFR before realizing that it is actually recommended to reach stable parameters with two part before using it. So, let's say I want these target parameters:

Alk: 7.8
Mg: 1300
Ca: 400
pH: 8.2

As of Feb 18, my current parameters are:

Nitrate: 24.9 (trying to bring down, Hanna)
Phosphate: 0.25 (also trying to bring down, Hanna)
Alk: 7.8 (Hanna)
Mg: 1280 (Red Sea Test Kit)
Ca: 400 (Red Sea Test Kit)
pH: 8.3 (Salifert)

Would I first raise the Alk, Mg, and Ca with, for instance, Tropic Marin Balling A&B, reach my target parameters, and then switch to AFR and use that to maintain these? In other words, do I want to match as close as possible to the ratio of elements I mentioned with two-part before using AFR, which I presume increases all parameters at the same rate? Does AFR act similarly to the Part C of the Balling Method where it contains the ions that will prevent accumulation of sodium chloride? I plan on daily testing once I have the new zoas added so I can get a sense of consumption patterns for each parameter. I am also currently using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt and do 10-15% weekly water changes.

I’ve been using AFR on my 90 gallon reef tank for a while. Be aware that AFR uses calcium formate and not calcium acitate. This means when it gets dosed bacteria have to eat it up in the water column before it spikes your levels up. I would personally raise your magnesium first before anything to prevent precipitation. Mag will prevent precipitation from happening.

 

[Sidsreef]

But to

Have had a torch for about three weeks now and am receiving 5 zoas from WWC tomorrow. I imagine this is enough coral to start considering dosing (90 gallon system), so I want to understand exactly how to prepare for this. I purchased AFR before realizing that it is actually recommended to reach stable parameters with two part before using it. So, let's say I want these target parameters:

Alk: 7.8
Mg: 1300
Ca: 400
pH: 8.2

As of Feb 18, my current parameters are:

Nitrate: 24.9 (trying to bring down, Hanna)
Phosphate: 0.25 (also trying to bring down, Hanna)
Alk: 7.8 (Hanna)
Mg: 1280 (Red Sea Test Kit)
Ca: 400 (Red Sea Test Kit)
pH: 8.3 (Salifert)

Would I first raise the Alk, Mg, and Ca with, for instance, Tropic Marin Balling A&B, reach my target parameters, and then switch to AFR and use that to maintain these? In other words, do I want to match as close as possible to the ratio of elements I mentioned with two-part before using AFR, which I presume increases all parameters at the same rate? Does AFR act similarly to the Part C of the Balling Method where it contains the ions that will prevent accumulation of sodium chloride? I plan on daily testing once I have the new zoas added so I can get a sense of consumption patterns for each parameter. I am also currently using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt and do 10-15% weekly water changes.

answer your question. I would start using AFR now because it will take a couple weeks to start working

 

[Reef.]

I am not 100% sure why my Alk is so low relative to the advertised value on the Red Sea Salt, but if I had to guess, I would imagine it is because of the way I was preparing the salt prior to the addition of corals. I was ignorant enough at first to not follow the directions on the bucket when I first started mixing the salt, and have only started mixing it according to the instructions on the bucket after I had added the torch, which was my first coral. I remember watching a BRS video showing that the Alk in the Coral Pro salt degraded if it was mixed continually beyond the two hour maximum Red Sea recommends, and I used to store my salt in larger quantities unheated with active power heads for long periods of time, so that may be why the Alk dropped so much, unless there is another reason for the Alk decline. I have used both Hanna and Red Sea to confirm my Alkalinity and have gotten identical results from both. I don't have any noticeable coraline blooms except on a few inverts, so I can't imagine that is the primary contributor to the lower Alk levels.

I really don’t think it’s a mixing issue, once mixed, leave it covered, no need to heat or mix it continuously, alk will drop a little but not by that much and will stabilise.

Could be a salinity issue, salinity can be off, which would alter alk, mag and calcium, if low or high, many people swear blind their salinity is correct (I was one) then realise it wasn’t.

As said it could be as simple as a new tank thing, alk can alter quite a lot when it’s a new tank, the important thing to do now is, do the 24 hour test to see how much your tank is using, then replace that with AFR.

A torch and a couple of Zoas will not be taking much out of a 90g tank tho, so if your 24 hour test shows more than say 0.2-0.4dkh, then it’s not the corals, it’s your tank settling down.

 

[ecas12]

I’ve been using AFR on my 90 gallon reef tank for a while. Be aware that AFR uses calcium formate and not calcium acitate. This means when it gets dosed bacteria have to eat it up in the water column before it spikes your levels up. I would personally raise your magnesium first before anything to prevent precipitation. Mag will prevent precipitation from happening.

But to

answer your question. I would start using AFR now because it will take a couple weeks to start working

Sounds good, thanks for the advice! I'll make sure to get my Mg levels up first.

 

[ecas12]

I really don’t think it’s a mixing issue, once mixed, leave it covered, no need to heat or mix it continuously, alk will drop a little but not by that much and will stabilise.

Could be a salinity issue, salinity can be off, which would alter alk, mag and calcium, if low or high, many people swear blind their salinity is correct (I was one) then realise it wasn’t.

As said it could be as simple as a new tank thing, alk can alter quite a lot when it’s a new tank, the important thing to do now is, do the 24 hour test to see how much your tank is using, then replace that with AFR.

A torch and a couple of Zoas will not be taking much out of a 90g tank tho, so if your 24 hour test shows more than say 0.2-0.4dkh, then it’s not the corals, it’s your tank settling down

Have had the tank up and running since August, first coral (the torch) has been in there about three weeks. Never really did any testing outside of nitrate and phosphate up until this point. I check my salinity once a week with a Hanna Salinity Checker (which I calibrate once a month or so) and it is a constant 1.025. None of the livestock has ever seemed stressed from the water conditions so I never really worried about it until now when it's more important to keep stable.