Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

McPuff

Valuable Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
1,113
Reaction score
1,226
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Plymouth, MI
The fish was quarantined prior to going into the display, mind you.
This hints at my question... how long does it take for the symptoms to show and ultimately prevail? I assume less than a few months but perhaps as long as a month? I actually had 3 wrasses that were on day 40 of QT and I was preparing to add them to the DT later that day. All 3 of them had been doing great up until that day but then they were all lying on the bottom and looking terrible. A day later all 3 were dead. Scott's, Labouti, and Lineatus. That one was painful but I guess it was better that they hadn't yet been stocked into the display.

Also Jay, it's been a while since our days in the Aquarium Club of Ann Arbor! I hope you're doing well!
 
Tidal Garden Memorial Day Sale

mcgullen

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Mar 19, 2022
Messages
103
Reaction score
75
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
San Diego
So the lab requires tissue sample for NNV PCR to be the eye and brain tissue of a fish. How am I supposed to get the brain of a tiny wrasse? What does that even look like? Is there a good YouTube video?
 

Fishfreak2009

Follow Your Passions!
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
2,950
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Michigan
So the lab requires tissue sample for NNV PCR to be the eye and brain tissue of a fish. How am I supposed to get the brain of a tiny wrasse? What does that even look like? Is there a good YouTube video?
I would call them and see if they'll accept a whole specimen in a plastic specimen jar filled with formalin. That is how I sent my glass frogs for histopath. I just had to open their coelomic cavity with a scalpel to allow better penetration of the formalin into the tissue, and noted it on the histopath form.
 

Slocke

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
151
Reaction score
198
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Atlanta
I'm new to saltwater but have been keeping animals my whole life. When I joined this hobby I had flasher and fairy wrasse down as one of my first fish due to the research I'd done. But after going to multiple LFS multiple times I never once saw a flasher or fairy that I thought looked healthy. Every single one had a limp depressed look due to the curve in the spine and the retracted fins. This for me is a sign of an animal with problems. I took me quite a few months and some convincing from fish stores as well as success with a different type of wrasse (melanurus) but eventually I came over to the idea that this was just what these wrasse were like. I then bought a Naoko and its been great so far..... except I'm never fully convinced of its health for the same reasons as above.

I don't know what my question is specifically but I'm wondering if this disease is connected with my observations and anxiety. It seems quite the coincidence that I've had this opinion since joining the hobby and then I read this thread of a disease that affects those same wrasse.
 
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
So the lab requires tissue sample for NNV PCR to be the eye and brain tissue of a fish. How am I supposed to get the brain of a tiny wrasse? What does that even look like? Is there a good YouTube video?

Dr. Yanong said "euthanized fresh whole fish". I emailed him for more info and he said he would get back to me tonight - but I *think* neutral buffered formalin at 10% for the histopathology, and "on ice" for the PCR....

Jay
 
Top Shelf Aquatics
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
This hints at my question... how long does it take for the symptoms to show and ultimately prevail? I assume less than a few months but perhaps as long as a month? I actually had 3 wrasses that were on day 40 of QT and I was preparing to add them to the DT later that day. All 3 of them had been doing great up until that day but then they were all lying on the bottom and looking terrible. A day later all 3 were dead. Scott's, Labouti, and Lineatus. That one was painful but I guess it was better that they hadn't yet been stocked into the display.

Also Jay, it's been a while since our days in the Aquarium Club of Ann Arbor! I hope you're doing well!

Your case doesn't sound much like this - all three fish in a group dying in a day sounds more like a protozoan infection (velvet). In these cases, only one fish is affected, and the symptoms linger for quite some time, meanwhile the fish is still eating (days to weeks).

Yes - doing well. I partially retired last October. I haven't been up to Ann Arbor for any club meetings since one at the old Natural History Museum, I think Ron Oldfield asked me up to speak? I haven't been to the new museums yet....

Jay
 

swensos

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
356
Reaction score
298
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Brooklyn, NY
I almost gave up on wrasses because of this disease. I had nine of twelve fairy/flasher wrasses over two years, slowly progress to where they couldn't swim, despite trying to catch food, and then dying. Everyone said it looked like spinal injury symptoms, which didn't really follow because it would slowly progress from a limp tail to complete loss of swimming control. I'm glad someone is figuring this out. Following.
 
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee

Is this it? I took this earlier today and its been deteriorating through the day. Should I do anything with the body if it dies or I euthanize it?

This is tough to determine from just the swimming pattern. If the onset of this was sudden (overnight) and the fish is NOT eating, then it is probably due to a strike injury. If on the other hand, the symptoms developed over days and the fish is STILL trying to feed, then it is more likely this unknown issue.

Jay
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

Girlsfish2

Community Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
39
Reaction score
1
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Wisconsin
I had a yellow corrise wrasse that all of a sudden one day was swimming like he was drunk, spinning, running into the sides of the tank glass and rocks and clearly seemed to have a neurological issue. He still would eat. I had Dr.G’s De-Wormer frozen fish food on hand and fed it to the tank. After about a week he returned back to normal. I’m not saying this is the same exact issue but it sounds like it could be. This was over 3 years ago and he lived up until he jumped 2 weeks ago
 
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
I had a yellow corrise wrasse that all of a sudden one day was swimming like he was drunk, spinning, running into the sides of the tank glass and rocks and clearly seemed to have a neurological issue. He still would eat. I had Dr.G’s De-Wormer frozen fish food on hand and fed it to the tank. After about a week he returned back to normal. I’m not saying this is the same exact issue but it sounds like it could be. This was over 3 years ago and he lived up until he jumped 2 weeks ago

That is one issue that we want to examine in these fish, that will show up on histopath.

Thanks for the input.

Jay
 

Vested

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Feb 28, 2021
Messages
288
Reaction score
197
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Colorado
Wrasse in QT that was doing perfect, after a second dose of prazi the next morning was exhibiting the exact same symptoms mentioned here. Almost like its body was paralyzed but could still move fins and eyes to somewhat direct his motion, within 48hrs of prazi dose was dead. I'm attributing it to prazi, but I'm curious if the symptoms of this possible disease are getting mixed a lot with other causes of death. Either way a lot of wrasse deaths seem to effect the body in the same way, definitely unique to wrasse though.
 
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
Wrasse in QT that was doing perfect, after a second dose of prazi the next morning was exhibiting the exact same symptoms mentioned here. Almost like its body was paralyzed but could still move fins and eyes to somewhat direct his motion, within 48hrs of prazi dose was dead. I'm attributing it to prazi, but I'm curious if the symptoms of this possible disease are getting mixed a lot with other causes of death. Either way a lot of wrasse deaths seem to effect the body in the same way, definitely unique to wrasse though.

Probably not directly related to prazi, I've dosed hundreds of wrasses with no issues. What it could be is this: the prazi killed internal worms. These in turn decomposed, causing sepsis, and then the fish died. Or - it was another issue entirely and the timing just made it look like it was the prazi. One key point though: a "moribund" fish dying from really any cause, exhibits similar symptoms. The key difference in these cases is that the fish still tries to feed, where a truly moribund fish ignores food.

Jay
 

Vested

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Feb 28, 2021
Messages
288
Reaction score
197
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Colorado
Probably not directly related to prazi, I've dosed hundreds of wrasses with no issues. What it could be is this: the prazi killed internal worms. These in turn decomposed, causing sepsis, and then the fish died. Or - it was another issue entirely and the timing just made it look like it was the prazi. One key point though: a "moribund" fish dying from really any cause, exhibits similar symptoms. The key difference in these cases is that the fish still tries to feed, where a truly moribund fish ignores food.

Jay
That has been my experience as well with prazi never had any issues but the timing for this one seemed suspicious, thanks for the info ill keep an eye on the thread.
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting
OP
Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,354
Reaction score
12,203
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
Can a non wrasse species carry the disease? Worried about transferring a fish in the same qt to a dt with healthy flasher wrasse.
We don’t know. I’ve not seen fish other than wrasses have these symptoms. I’ve also not been able to figure out if it is contagious between wrasses. I still haven’t been able to 100% rule out strike injuries, which of course wouldn’t be contagious.
Jay
 

docwells

Community Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
95
Reaction score
22
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Wilmington
Just lost my female Ornate Wrasse to what you are describing. Was swimming funny but still trying to eat. Next day had curved spine almost like a C. I had never seen anything like it. Treat with Kanaplex and Prazi. Died next day. At least I maybe have answer on what caused her to die. My other wrasses are fine including the male Ornate Wrasse
 

Saltyanimals

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
652
Reaction score
255
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Just picked up 4 fairy and 1 flasher. All in QT with only metro and GC schedule. Holding on copper right now but ran across this posting. Timing wise looks like some of these are all happening during the early purchase phases while in QT. So whatever this is seems to reveal itself early on. I have a blue side that’s in a separate isolation box inside the QT as it was getting picked on by the flasher half it’s size. He does show the slight curve, but I’m chalking it off as him hunting for food under him. Not a lot of flow through that box as well to really tell. I’ll get him back to general population in the next few couple to see how he swims. Sad we all have this wrasse mystery
 
Reef Chasers Aquaculture

How much of your saltwater reef tank is automated?

  • Nothing is automated

    Votes: 65 13.7%
  • 25% or so

    Votes: 146 30.9%
  • 50% or so

    Votes: 106 22.4%
  • 75% or so

    Votes: 104 22.0%
  • Close to 100%

    Votes: 49 10.4%
  • Totally Automated (we need proof)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
Zoanthids.com
Top