Using Nutrients to Control Nutrients

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ReefGeezer

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Where did Randy say it wasn't???
Well... I thought since there was some discussion about phytoplankton not binding N&P but photosynthetic organisms being N&P sinks that phytoplankton must not photosynthetic.
 

Erin1971Texas

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I don't follow...

"Like land plants, phytoplankton have chlorophyll to capture sunlight, and they use photosynthesis to turn it into chemical energy. They consume carbon dioxide, and release oxygen. All phytoplankton photosynthesize"
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thanks Randy. I really thought phytoplankton was photosynthetic.

It is, but many things that eat it are not. When it is eaten, the N and P are partly/mostly released.
 
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Thanks Randy. I really thought phytoplankton was photosynthetic.
It is, only wile in the culturing jar with lots of agitation. Wile in the jar phytoplankton will absorb carbon from the atmosphere in form of Co2 and nutrients from the water column (fertiliser). What would it happen if the agitation were to stop wile in the jar? Most people that grow phytoplankton know the answers, phytoplankton will settle in the bottom of the jar and start to decompose. The same happens wend dosed in the tank, the lack of agitation will make the phytoplankton settle.
 

Hans-Werner

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I like the approach but it completely ignores trace nutrients, a point Randy already made. Iron, manganese, zinc, copper, nickel, iodine etc., any essential trace nutrient, better known as trace elements, may limit coral or algal growth and inhibit further nutrient depletion. Instead of only experimenting with nitrate and phosphate sometimes dosing trace elements may do the trick, I think more often than not.

With algae, especially macro algae but also phytoplancton, there is another mechanism that may help balance nutrients: Algae always fix carbon from CO2 and convert it to organic carbon, it is an essential process for them to relieve their photosynthetic systems from excess energy. If algae can't use it for further growth because they are nutrient limited, they release organic carbon into the water. In the water this organic carbon can either feed heterotrophic nitrogen fixing (diazotrophic) microbes or fuel denitrification, depending whether there is a shortage or an excess of available nitrogen compounds. It is a self-regulating system that works also in and with corals and their algal symbionts.
 
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I like the approach but it completely ignores trace nutrients, a point Randy already made. Iron, manganese, zinc, copper, nickel, iodine etc., any essential trace nutrient, better known as trace elements, may limit coral or algal growth and inhibit further nutrient depletion. Instead of only experimenting with nitrate and phosphate sometimes dosing trace elements may do the trick, I think more often than not.

It could be hard to dose trace elements without knowing what’s available an ICP would be a good way to dose trace. They can easily be overdosed and have more bad effects than good.
With algae, especially macro algae but also phytoplancton, there is another mechanism that may help balance nutrients: Algae always fix carbon from CO2 and convert it to organic carbon, it is an essential process for them to relieve their photosynthetic systems from excess energy. If algae can't use it for further growth because they are nutrient limited, they release organic carbon into the water. In the water this organic carbon can either feed heterotrophic nitrogen fixing (diazotrophic) microbes or fuel denitrification, depending whether there is a shortage or an excess of available nitrogen compounds. It is a self-regulating system that works also in and with corals and their algal symbionts.

This is the base of triton, wend used with a refugium, they encourage us to add different macro algaes to get some of the benefits of the organic carbon from the die off algaes.
Other brands would be zeovit for example that target bacterial in the system for the overall system balance. Just in a more controlled way in a bottle.
 

Hans-Werner

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It could be hard to dose trace elements without knowing what’s available an ICP would be a good way to dose trace. They can easily be overdosed and have more bad effects than good.
This is always said but I think it is hardly ever proven.

I do not know of any case where excess trace metal concentrations found by ICP-OES could be attributed to trace element dosing. In the examples where high trace metal concentrations where found, the source was generally unknown.

From customers dosing our Tropic Marin K+ and A- Elements I do not know of any case where high trace element concentrations were found. Rather customers complain about low iron and manganese concentrations and when I see the analysis protocols usually no or maybe one or two of the essential trace metals (sometimes zinc and/or nickel) are found in low concentrations by ICP-OES.
 
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sixty_reefer

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This is always said but I think it is hardly ever proven.
Agreed, there is many sources of trace elements in a tank
I do not know of any case where excess trace metal concentrations found by ICP-OES could be attributed to trace element dosing. In the examples where high trace metal concentrations where found, the source was generally unknown.

From customers dosing our Tropic Marin K+ and A- Elements I do not know of any case where high trace element concentrations were found. Rather customers complain about low iron and manganese concentrations and when I see the analysis protocols usually no or maybe one or two of the essential trace metals (sometimes zinc and/or nickel) are found in low concentrations by ICP-OES.

Your customers must have a large algae bed in they’re system, I’ve always struggled keeping trace in check with the demands of my algae’s.

May I ask if there is a reason why on the control range there not an option to purchase N and P separately or are both in the same packaging? Looking at elemin-NP which is carbon sources but Plus-NP and NP-bacto-Balance
 
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Hans-Werner

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Your customers must have a large algae bed in they’re system, I’ve always struggled keeping trace in check with the demands of my algae’s.
Where do your trace elements come from?

May I ask if there is a reason why on the control range there not an option to purchase N and P separately or are both in the same packaging? Looking at elemin-NP which is carbon sources but Plus-NP and NP-bacto-Balance
In fact we have N separately already, it is Amino-Organic, and a P-product is on the way.

Because in my opinion the main focus on nitrate was and maybe is wrong, I wanted to introduce a different approach and this is why we offered something that in our opinion where the best ratios for Balling method (and All-For-Reef, Carbo-Calcium) so far but in different concentrations, NP-Bacto-Balance on the low side for stabilizing rising concentrations and lowering concentrations and Plus-NP on the high side for raising concentrations.
 

J1a

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Where do your trace elements come from?


In fact we have N separately already, it is Amino-Organic, and a P-product is on the way.

Because in my opinion the main focus on nitrate was and maybe is wrong, I wanted to introduce a different approach and this is why we offered something that in our opinion where the best ratios for Balling method (and All-For-Reef, Carbo-Calcium) so far but in different concentrations, NP-Bacto-Balance on the low side for stabilizing rising concentrations and lowering concentrations and Plus-NP on the high side for raising concentrations.
While animo acid is a great source for nitrogen elements, and likely directly useful for corals, the down side of it is that it tends to feed dinos.

Wouldnt it nice to have a ammonium nitrate solution (at low concentration to comply with regulations). It would only introduce nitrogen element and nothing much else.
 

Erin1971Texas

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It is, only wile in the culturing jar with lots of agitation. Wile in the jar phytoplankton will absorb carbon from the atmosphere in form of Co2 and nutrients from the water column (fertiliser). What would it happen if the agitation were to stop wile in the jar? Most people that grow phytoplankton know the answers, phytoplankton will settle in the bottom of the jar and start to decompose. The same happens wend dosed in the tank, the lack of agitation will make the phytoplankton settle.
So what you're really saying is that phytoplankton is only photosynthetic while it's alive? I think most of us understand that ;)
And I would bet that most tanks have enough flow to keep them alive, at least until they are consumed.
 

Hans-Werner

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While animo acid is a great source for nitrogen elements, and likely directly useful for corals, the down side of it is that it tends to feed dinos.
I have not noticed such a feeding of dinos during development of the product. Most nitrogen in Amino-Organic is in other organic nitrogen compounds.

Besides this we recommend not to use it at very low phosphate concentrations. Maybe rather low phosphate is the condition feeding dinos.
 
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Where do your trace elements come from?
At the moment from large water changes, although I’d like a more effective way to accomplish that.
In fact we have N separately already, it is Amino-Organic, and a P-product is on the way.

Because in my opinion the main focus on nitrate was and maybe is wrong, I wanted to introduce a different approach and this is why we offered something that in our opinion where the best ratios for Balling method (and All-For-Reef, Carbo-Calcium) so far but in different concentrations, NP-Bacto-Balance on the low side for stabilizing rising concentrations and lowering concentrations and Plus-NP on the high side for raising concentrations.
Looking forward to the new products, I may give them a try as in my particular case I always end up with high po4 in my tanks due excessive phytoplankton dosing, not from the phytoplankton itself but from the fertiliser that is not used by the phytoplankton wile in the photo bioreactor. Dosing N and P seems ideal to lower the phosphates wile increase biological filter. I’ve tried some ready made solutions from other companies but they seemed very diluted and not effective for my needs.
Medias we’re also not effective in my particular situation.
 

ReefGeezer

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It is, only wile in the culturing jar with lots of agitation. Wile in the jar phytoplankton will absorb carbon from the atmosphere in form of Co2 and nutrients from the water column (fertiliser). What would it happen if the agitation were to stop wile in the jar? Most people that grow phytoplankton know the answers, phytoplankton will settle in the bottom of the jar and start to decompose. The same happens wend dosed in the tank, the lack of agitation will make the phytoplankton settle.
I culture Phyto. Yep... it will die and decompose if the agitation is stopped. I don't buy that a substantial portion of what I dose settles to the bottom in my high flow tank. I think is stays in suspension for a while. I dose it mostly for food. Some is consumed by other organisms, and as Randy has said, releases some N & P. Some is exported by the skimmer along with the some N&P. Surely some does settle and decompose. If you are correct, it adds C, N, P, and some trace elements. All good in my book. Still a simplistic view, but that's how I roll!

I did read through your research. I just cant wrap my head around dosing dead phyto as a carbon source though. I'll continue to follow the thread. It is interesting. Thanks.
 
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So what you're really saying is that phytoplankton is only photosynthetic while it's alive? I think most of us understand that ;)
And I would bet that most tanks have enough flow to keep them alive, at
I culture Phyto. Yep... it will die and decompose if the agitation is stopped. I don't buy that a substantial portion of what I dose settles to the bottom in my high flow tank. I think is stays in suspension for a while. I dose it mostly for food. Some is consumed by other organisms, and as Randy has said, releases some N & P. Some is exported by the skimmer along with the some N&P. Surely some does settle and decompose. If you are correct, it adds C, N, P, and some trace elements. All good in my book. Still a simplistic view, but that's how I roll!

I did read through your research. I just cant wrap my head around dosing dead phyto as a carbon source though. I'll continue to follow the thread. It is interesting. Thanks.
They mainly observation, phytoplankton not to bad regarding most coral.
AFB37554-3958-4FDE-9442-C931F1F248DE.png
DBD20CC8-5870-4B0D-BD4F-C8BE5BEA5866.png

This was my montipora digitate reaction to continuous exposure to phytoplankton decomposition in my first trial tank. It got the craziest PE I’ve ever seen on a digitate.
 
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