Vectra and neptune Apex

[Breadman03]

i can totally see ETM developing their own controller over the next year or two. before NS started producing pumps/wavemakers might not have been a focus, but now they may as well. already have the reeflink, so its not crazy to think they will develop their own unit to control everything. heck, maybe ETM heaters/skimmers/atos as well.

I don't really know anything about the Reeflink, but I bet a module with outlets and probe inputs could be made to work with it relatively easily with some firmware updates.

Having said that, the lack of WXM compatibility is why I now own a Red Dragon return pump.

 

[michaelrc51]

I don't really know anything about the Reeflink, but I bet a module with outlets and probe inputs could be made to work with it relatively easily with some firmware updates.

Having said that, the lack of WXM compatibility is why I now own a Red Dragon return pump.

Exactly why I am going Red Dragon as well.
And I have a brand new L1 for sale......BNIB.

So, I guess the question to now ask is why do other Ecotech products offer Apex support?
I can completely see the fact that Ecotech is a bit upset. But, in the end Ecotech makes great products and trying to "strong arm" people into using their controls only means lost business on their part. Do you think people are going to abandon Scotch return pumps because Neptune now makes one? I don't believe so and it seems like people love Scotch products. So, the only perspective I see here is that Ecotech is now giving some of their loyal customers a reason to look else where.
IMHO Ecotech needs to believe in their following and the fact that they make superior products and people are loyal to that. Don't give people who have supported them a reason to look for a different product because it isn't compatible with a controller that their other products have been for years.
For me it is the mere thought that a manufacturer wants to "strong arm" me into their controller.

Also, said controls don't seem to be that good. If you are going to try and do what we have indicated as a possibility maybe they should get a lot of the bugs figured out before going this route.

Also, you have to assume Ecotech didn't plan their control without thinking they would encroach upon Neptune's market share.....

I'll be saying the same thing if Kessil doesn't come out with Apex support for the AP700

 

[sevens_up77]

Exactly why I am going Red Dragon as well.
And I have a brand new L1 for sale......BNIB.

So, I guess the question to now ask is why do other Ecotech products offer Apex support?
I can completely see the fact that Ecotech is a bit upset. But, in the end Ecotech makes great products and trying to "strong arm" people into using their controls only means lost business on their part. Do you think people are going to abandon Scotch return pumps because Neptune now makes one? I don't believe so and it seems like people love Scotch products. So, the only perspective I see here is that Ecotech is now giving some of their loyal customers a reason to look else where.
IMHO Ecotech needs to believe in their following and the fact that they make superior products and people are loyal to that. Don't give people who have supported them a reason to look for a different product because it isn't compatible with a controller that their other products have been for years.
For me it is the mere thought that a manufacturer wants to "strong arm" me into their controller.

Also, said controls don't seem to be that good. If you are going to try and do what we have indicated as a possibility maybe they should get a lot of the bugs figured out before going this route.

Also, you have to assume Ecotech didn't plan their control without thinking they would encroach upon Neptune's market share.....

I'll be saying the same thing if Kessil doesn't come out with Apex support for the AP700

What are you asking for the L1?

 

[michaelrc51]

What are you asking for the L1?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/scotch-vectra-l1-bnib.235518/

 

[fz1163]

This helped me understand @akaimal 's line of thought that leads to thinking "Wireless" EcoTech products mean they are APEX compatible. True, as @JP Reef suggests here, the "wireless" versions of EcoTech products are intended to be "wireless" with the EcoTech ReefLink controller...exclusively. The compatibility with APEX has always been an afterthought. They were never intended to automatically be "Apex Ready". Which leads into my next comments...



I agree, when first starting down the road of aquarium "control-ability" I wanted One to Rule Them All. This is why I purchased an APEX. One of the perks was that I could also control my EcoTech products with the same controller. The world was great!

Fast forward to the most recent years, Neptune Systems begin to expand on their product name. (Of course...Who want's to be known as a one-trick pony?) So they began developing products, under their own name, that could rival/replace the same products that was supported on their APEX controller. Instead of being in a primary market which they dominated (controllers), they begin to "encroach" on other company's market base (pumps/powerheads), by releasing the WAV pump. This now makes them a direct competitor for companies like EcoTech Marine.

This direct competition forces CEOs into a decision point. Allow a direct competitor continued compatibility, or make future products incompatible and defend market share? From a business standpoint, and from my bakery example above, it only seems logical to defend market share. Thus, you now have EcoTech products that don't work with Neptune Systems.

Does this mean Neptune Systems is the bad guy, not at all. In my opinion, EcoTech's ReefLink could also be seen as an encroachment on Neptune Systems' market share of aquarium controllers. Which would make sense for Neptune to continue its expansion on the Neptune name. However, ReefLink only controls EcoTech products, whereas Neptune APEX controls several company's products.

I think, in it's inception, Neptune APEX was intended to be the controller to control them all. (Hence, various aquarium product manufacturers allowing access to their products on Neptune's controller platform.) Yet for anyone who understands business, being a "one-trick-pony" only yields sustainable profits for so long. The aquarium equipment industry continues to grow and Neptune Systems felt it was time to begin growing with it. Unfortunately, their growth comes at the cost of a lost convenience for all beloved users of both manufacturer's products.

 

[gcarroll]

I'm curious to know this question...
We all know that the Vectra can't be controlled by the Apex, if Ecotech comes out with a controller, will Neptune allow that controller to control the COR pump, or the WAV pump?

Honestly guys, each of these businesses are looking out for their own interest here. It is what it is. No bad guys here or there. It's just business.

 

[hybridazn]

I'm curious to know this question...
We all know that the Vectra can't be controlled by the Apex, if Ecotech comes out with a controller, will Neptune allow that controller to control the COR pump, or the WAV pump?

Honestly guys, each of these businesses are looking out for their own interest here. It is what it is. No bad guys here or there. It's just business.

Most likely not since to operate the wav pumps you need the module to run it anyway.

 

[michaelrc51]

I'm curious to know this question...
We all know that the Vectra can't be controlled by the Apex, if Ecotech comes out with a controller, will Neptune allow that controller to control the COR pump, or the WAV pump?

Honestly guys, each of these businesses are looking out for their own interest here. It is what it is. No bad guys here or there. It's just business.

I don't see it the same way.
I get the fact Ecotech is trying to protect their market share but I just don't agree with them. They make nice products and maybe their controller will be better someday. But, for now why not keep on doing things the way they have?
Their other products are still working with Apex. They make good products, so what if Neptune tries to jump in, what do you think Ecotech has done by making their controller, do you think they never had thoughts about making something similar to Apex?
There are plenty of people who will stay loyal to Ecotech if they produce quality components like they are known for. But, now because they "have to protect their market share" they are giving people a reason to look elsewhere.

I already sold my Vectra L1.....and my plan is to run 2 pumps so I would've been buying another instead of selling that one.

 

[gcarroll]

Their other products are still working with Apex. They make good products, so what if Neptune tries to jump in, what do you think Ecotech has done by making their controller, do you think they never had thoughts about making something similar to Apex?
There are plenty of people who will stay loyal to Ecotech if they produce quality components like they are known for. But, now because they "have to protect their market share" they are giving people a reason to look elsewhere.

At this time all we know is that they haven't yet made the Vectra work with the Apex. Will that change? Maybe the L2?

As for the other products, as updated Ecotech products are released we will find out if they decide to continue making them compatible.

I don't have any Ecotech products and do have an Apex. I never would even consider running my return pump off of a controller

 

[fbodykiller]

My guess is that Ecotech came out with Reeflink.....and in turn Neptune came out eith their powerheads. I have an Apex and 2 MP40QS's. If they were to go away from mp's workng with the wxm in next generation I would ditch Ecotech and switch to Tunze. I think Ecotech needs to look at how things can happen both ways.

 

[adhd_nerd]

Open is better. It is short sighted to think that anything proprietary and closed will last long term. Look at the trend in other industries. The first one to truly open up and allow others to truly interoperate and innovate will understand how to make money in the open model; others will die a slow death trying to "protect" market share.

 

[JP Reef]

Open is better. It is short sighted to think that anything proprietary and closed will last long term. Look at the trend in other industries. The first one to truly open up and allow others to truly interoperate and innovate will understand how to make money in the open model; others will die a slow death trying to "protect" market share.

Those that don't protect market share and intellectual property die a quick death as in every capitalist society. If you don't protect what you intellectually produce then someone will copy and make it cheaper and undercut you out of the market. Based on what you are saying then Ecotech should just open source their code and designs for their pumps. How many vortech copies do you see anywhere. NONE. So I am not sure stopping support for APEX (which is very easily copied because it's function is very BASIC) will hurt Ecotech one bit. Most people that use Apex don't even know WHY they need a new module with every advancement in aquarium equipment. APEX ready means that the equipment is designed at such a low level to work with Apex. The WXM module along with all the other modules were needed to be designed after the fact because the basic apex modules can't do more than simple things. Therefore Neptune needed the intellectual property of Ecotech to make a module to talk to their products. Heck, they even needed to make a module to talk to their own pumps they just released. Copying the functions of a basic Apex will be very simple and in fact people have built their own.

 

[akaimal]

Open is better. It is short sighted to think that anything proprietary and closed will last long term. Look at the trend in other industries. The first one to truly open up and allow others to truly interoperate and innovate will understand how to make money in the open model; others will die a slow death trying to "protect" market share.

Well said. It's just a matter of few lines of code inside the controller. They are making life hard for us on purpose. Even Microsoft started making stuff open source!!

 

[imjedi76]

the way I see it WAV and COR may be competing with Vortech and Vectras, however I wouldn't say its in direct competition. WAV and COR require the Apex controller to work. You can't just plug it in and expect it to work right out of the box. I believe it was designed for consumers who want to know every aspect of their tank and be able to have total control of their equipment. The Vectra is a great return pump, but the only feature I am using it for is in sump constant flow. it basically does what any other return pump on the market can do with the exception of all the wave modes which I can't use in an in sump system anyway. What it doesn't do is give me the temp and flow rate to really fine tune the system. Even the WAV has some of those features. So feature wise the WAV and COR is better, however it requires an Apex controller which is not cheap. But if you already have an Apex, then adding these is an added bonus.

By making their products compatible with Apex, Ecotech would still be able to sell to new customers as well as retain a lot of their current customers. A lot of people are holding off on purchasing a Vectra and waiting for the COR for the Apex controllability. EcoSmartLive is not all that great to use, and I am not going to buy a reeflink just to use features I don't need on a return pump. I want to be able to put the pump in feed mode when I feed with the press of one button. If the Vectras are compatible already, there would be no need to wait for the COR to come out unless you absolutely must have all the features.

 

[Jlobes]

I don't have any Ecotech products and do have an Apex. I never would even consider running my return pump off of a controller

why not??

 

[hybridazn]

Those that don't protect market share and intellectual property die a quick death as in every capitalist society. If you don't protect what you intellectually produce then someone will copy and make it cheaper and undercut you out of the market. Based on what you are saying then Ecotech should just open source their code and designs for their pumps. How many vortech copies do you see anywhere. NONE. So I am not sure stopping support for APEX (which is very easily copied because it's function is very BASIC) will hurt Ecotech one bit. Most people that use Apex don't even know WHY they need a new module with every advancement in aquarium equipment. APEX ready means that the equipment is designed at such a low level to work with Apex. The WXM module along with all the other modules were needed to be designed after the fact because the basic apex modules can't do more than simple things. Therefore Neptune needed the intellectual property of Ecotech to make a module to talk to their products. Heck, they even needed to make a module to talk to their own pumps they just released. Copying the functions of a basic Apex will be very simple and in fact people have built their own.

I see what your saying, and you're right. But companies like tesla have open patents and openly share their knowledge hoping that someone else can pick up the ball and run with it on something they want to improve on.

 

[gcarroll]

why not??

I don't like adding additional points of failure when it comes to my tank. That's just me and my thought process. Might not be for everyone.

If I ran a vectra, I would use my Apex to control supplemental flow and use the Vectra with it's native control. I also would put them on separate circuits. Basically creating a fail safe in case one of the components fails I am not left totally without flow.

 

[michaelrc51]

I don't like adding additional points of failure when it comes to my tank. That's just me and my thought process. Might not be for everyone.

That's funny cause I want to add redundancy with 2 pumps controlled by my Apex.
My idea is to run them at say 40% and if one fails kick the other up to say 80%.

 

[gcarroll]

That's funny cause I want to add redundancy with 2 pumps controlled by my Apex.
My idea is to run them at say 40% and if one fails kick the other up to say 80%.

But if the Apex or Apex Energy Bar fails you have 0%

 

[michaelrc51]

But if the Apex or Apex Energy Bar fails you have 0%

Not if each pump is on a seperate EB on seperate circuits.