Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum)

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Humblefish, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. Brad Vaughn

    Brad Vaughn Active Member

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    I'm taking your advice. I ordered the Coppersafe. I did order some Cupramine already but I'll let that go. I love these guys. So far their immunity is up so I will be monitoring them closely. They're eating well, especially the Hippo.
     
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  2. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    First - Humblefish - thanks for taking the time to write all this up! I've, unfortunately, have had to take up on the advice. Little bummed that my first post has to be on this, but had it not been for me being able to Google photos that showed velvet, I wouldn't have found this thread and figured I'd contribute to my WIP in hopes that I can help others too.

    So, after a vacation - I came back to the onset of what looked like both ich and brook - 1 hippo blue and 1 yellow tang with ich + 2 clownfishes with brook. I was hoping for success with the least invasive methods of care

    LFS suggested trying Ruby Reef's Kick Ich and Rally (as I had two BTAs and some inverts). Things did improve - clownfishes didn't show signs of brook after the first 3 days of Rally - Great! The ich... most fell off the fishes and was almost cleaned up - then about a week in, BAM! - Both tangs were slammed with new spots. Not quite enough to make me think velvet; but definitely enough as ich:

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    So I was told that the new spots were ich that was already on the body, but just hadn't grown to the size that the eye could see. Once they fall - Kick Ich "should" be able to take care of the free floaters from reinfecting the fish.

    Ok... I've come this far - finish the regimen at least, if it gets better, continue with it; worse... need more drastic measures. The whole time - all the fishes were happy, eating, swimming, breathing normally (the BTAs not too happy, but that's for a different thread). Upped the food with some Selcon and garlic.

    Day 14 comes around - Blue isn't looking too hot and the yellow made it to the pantry at some point for sugar:


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    That day - started executing Humble's plan. Did the dip (with exception of PH balancing it) - all took it well for full amount of time; did the Rally (as I already had it); got them into QT:

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    This was just after the dips - looked EXTREMELY better! Blue looked better too, but was shy for the camera and I don't have good enough lights where QT is for pics. Because of the massive improvement - I wanted them to rest for the day, so I didn't add the copper yet.

    The next day - both tangs don't show signs of ich or velvet. But the clownfishes both had the spot on the front white band - and looked to be getting worse. Plus there were new spots on the top:
    IMG_3990.JPG

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    It was time - So that night I did another FW dip for the clownfishes - they still took it well. Fed all the fishes - all were eating well. 10G QT now HT was up to speed - time to dose. Followed instructions to the letter on Cuperamine. I had a 1mL syringe to use - so that was nice to give accurate dosage. I calculated out the water in the tank and adjusted the dosage that should have gotten me the half "acclimation" dosage... Did not! Went straight to 0.35-0.4mg/L! (About as accurate of a reading I can get with my eyes on that stupid color chart of Sachem's - you would think with such a narrow window of where you should be, that they would make the colors more distinct).

    Next morning - ammonia badge showed an "alert" level of ammonia. Did about a 15% WC - re-dosed with a little less so I could get the Cu level down a bit to 0.25-0.3. CRAP! I'm now at 0.4-0.5mg/L. what the heck right? I added more water to dilute (maintained SG) and now back to 0.35-0.4mg/L.

    Fishes are still happy and eating. Blue has taken herself to wedge between the heater and glass at night; clownfishes have staked their own PVC rooms now (little bummed considering it was so cute when they would huddle in the front corner next to each other at night, every night, in the DT); and yellow really doesn't seem to care where it hangs.

    I'll keep posted with more pics as we progress - I hope that I have success pics in the end and that the pics can at least help somebody else that may one day be in my shoes.
     
  3. stevo01

    stevo01 R33F!N @DD!CT R2R Excellence Award

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    Good work going to Cu treatment plan! Good work staying on top of it! Excellent communication!
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  4. drawman

    drawman Valuable Member

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    Good work getting on this looks like they had a pretty good infection going. Keep us updated with your progress!
     
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  5. s2nhle

    s2nhle Valuable Member

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    thank you very much for the update.
     
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  6. Brad Vaughn

    Brad Vaughn Active Member

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    Great post! Recovery IS possible. I treated with regular dose of CP and a half dose of Cuprimine as recommended by a fellow reefer. Everything worked well but I was doing water changes like crazy trying to keep the ammonia levels down. Made it through 20 days and would have transferred them more quickly but new QT was not yet cycled. Finally Nitrite plummeted and I was able to transfer everybody last week. No signs of ICH/Velvet so far. Treatment does take a toll and I did lose some wrasses but not all. Also lost my Anthias. I would've lost them all if I had not treated so I am glad I did even with the losses. I now have 2 QT tanks and 2 treatment tanks going in a spare room. Everything gets QT from now on. And new fish will go through 10-day CP as well. DT has been fallow now for a few weeks.
     
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  7. monkiboy

    monkiboy Valuable Member R2R Supporter

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    great photos and documentation leon*. thank you for taking the time to share with the community.
     
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  8. ParkPlace

    ParkPlace Member

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    Any thoughts on buying fish from stores that keep their stock medicated vs. those that don't? It seemed like every time I would add a fish from a local store that keeps their fish medicated, I would get an outbreak of something within days of adding them to my tank. I now also use the tank transfer method as an additional method of quarantine before adding anything new.
     
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  9. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    No matter where you get your fish or their "QT" protocols, always do your own QT when you get the fish home. Never trust anybody's QT but your own. I work at an LFS and keep our fish tanks at therapeutic levels of copper and treat with prazipro once a week... I still tell every customer to QT our fish. I don't guarantee anything except that I did my best to insure as healthy a fish as possible.
     
  10. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    @LeonThePeon Excellent documentation and photos! :)

    Unfortunately, one acriflavine (Rally) bath won't always eradicate brook (on your clowns). Sometimes multiple baths are required or you might even need to resort to using formalin.
     
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  11. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks!

    I figured as much for the Rally - when I used it in the DT at the beginning, the brook seemed to have disappeared, but that was with full dosage for 3 days straight.

    I am hesitant on mixing the Rally with the Cupramine treatment going on in the HT for that continuous treatment of acriflavine; but I'm not sure how effective the acriflavine would be as a daily dip instead (plus the stress of catching the clownfish each day in and out of the dip). Nevertheless - I did do a 90min dip in Rally this morning.
     
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  12. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    In order for the Rally bath to be effective, you must transfer the fish into a sterile QT afterwards to prevent reinfection.
     
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  13. Humblefish

    Humblefish Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    Just wanted to post a more detailed explanation of why I feel FW dip + acriflavine + Chloroquine phosphate is the best way to treat velvet:
    1. Noga (2000) and Noga & Levy (1995) both reported that a single (5 minute) freshwater dip would remove 80-90% of the parasites. This clears the gills of parasites, so the fish can breathe again, and gives the fish a fighting chance moving forward.
    2. The good news is 80-90% of the feeding trophonts have now detached; the bad news is all the tiny bite marks left behind are just waiting to get infected. :( This is where acriflavine, an antiseptic, comes to the rescue! A 60-90 minute bath will render "first aid" to your fish and reduce the possibility (but NOT eliminate) of a secondary infection once he is placed in QT. :) If an infection does pop up in QT, you always have the option of dosing a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Furan-2, Kanaplex) in conjunction with copper or CP. (Formalin, the alternative bath treatment, does force even more trophonts off the fish but contains NO antibacterial properties.)
    3. If he survives, the fish is now in better shape following the FW dip + acriflavine bath; however some trophonts still remain and now need to be eradicated in a QT. Dosing Chloroquine phosphate @ 60mg/gal is the best way to achieve this, as you can go from zero to full therapeutic with no ill effects. Copper (ex. Coppersafe) is the backup plan, especially for CP intolerant fish such as wrasses, anthias and Hippo Tangs. However, therapeutic levels of copper must be achieved within 24 hrs when dealing with velvet and some fish just cannot handle being exposed to that much copper so quickly. :(
    4. Whether using CP or copper in QT, 2 weeks is the minimum treatment period (with 4 weeks needed to also eradicate ich.) Fallow period for velvet in the DT is 6 weeks, with 76 days being optimal for also eliminating ich in there.
     
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  14. Empress

    Empress Valuable Member

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    Nice explanation for velvet treatment since I never really understood the reason behind the acriflavine. I get it now. And it makes perfect sense. Thanks once again for providing yet another "easy-to-understand" write up.
     
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  15. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    On Day 6 of Cupramine treatment and so far, so good.

    Blue is healing up very nicely - haven't seen any new spots on him (white or black):
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    Yellow tang is looking pretty clean too:
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    I'm going to have to figure out what to do with the clowns - as I don't have another QT (my wife would probably say I don't have the space either) to make sure they don't get reinfected - The markings on the white band around the head doesn't look to be getting any better though...
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  16. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    All of these guys look SOOO much better!! Amazing job Leon!
     
  17. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    On a separate note - is there an easier way to keep up with nitrite build up? I did 15% water changes on Days 2, 3, and 4 - the Seachem badge never went back to "Safe <0.02ppm". So on Day 5, I tried to test the water with the ammonia test from API (part of the API Saltwater Master Kit I already use):
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    Ummm.... API's test looks to be around 1.0-2.0ppm - Seachem's badge should show "Toxic" at this point

    So - I did (what ended up to be) 2 x 20% changes and 1 x 40% (I was planning on just 1 or 2 20%, but after retesting, it was still kind of high). After the last change:
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    Still not where I wanted to be - I did another 20% this morning, but haven't tested it yet.

    I shouldn't be having to do 80% water changes a day right? (Also - I have been retesting my copper levels and we're still at 0.4-0.5mg/L)
     
  18. melypr1985

    melypr1985 totally addicted R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor Moderator Emeritus

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    The liquid kits arn't going to tell you anything accurate right now. I wouldn't even look at them as long as copper is present. Be sure that you are viewing your alert badge with a white light (like a flash light) or in a bright room. They can sometimes look dark like that until viewed in a bright light. I have a dim livingroom (I get migraines a lot) and it was hard for me to read the badge without a flashlight.
     
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  19. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Couldn't have gotten this far without Humble's advice on this thread! Otherwise, I'd probably have been still rolling the dice on the effectiveness of Kick Ich
     
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  20. LeonThePeon

    LeonThePeon Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    Hope that's the case - Cause I won't be able to keep up with that kind of water change schedule
     
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