Velvet Killed Everything - What's Next?

[attilak]

Guys,

I am not going to go on a rant here and tell you what occurred to me this week. As you can imagine from the title, it has been a devastating and exhausting week - which started last Sunday. In a week, my entire tank with the exception of a Valenti puffer and a Golden Heart now in QT is what's left out of at least 25 - 30 fish.

In short, this is my 220 gallon fish only tank with some anemones and softies. This is my main concern as I am really struggling to understand how and when velvet was introduced to my tank. The last fish I introduced was a small clown fish about 2 or 3 months ago. I have invested in a strict QT process that all my fish go through - no corners cut. I have friends telling me that velvet can be introduced on inverts. But even that I have not added! it started with the small clown fish and from there down hill with fish dying each day. I tried to pull a few out and treat in my 75 gal QT w/ copper but lost regal, goldflake and bandit angel in 2 days - the symptom almost looked as they were bruised. The only one left in the QT is a very large golden heart (12"). I have pair of cross hatches - seemed to be happy and not impacted, which my buddy said leave alone if eating. Well they ate and next day female dead! As I am writing this I am not taking a chance and doing fresh water dip, then moving to copper treatment today. I did notice that my UV bulb was burned out and immedietly replaced a few days ago but fish continued to drop like flies. I did not anticipate UV to be a cure, but maybe help reduce parasites.

This is my question/dilemma; as you can imagine, what is going through my mind is to get out of the hobby once in for all. However, I look at everything I have invested in equipment and I go back to maybe just take a chill and re-evaluate the situation. I have probably close to 20k of equipment invested and probbaly get pennies on a dollar for used equipment.

Questions:

1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert?
2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank?
3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host?
4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks!
5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful.

I really do appreciate all feedback, answers, etc. I want to turn to the R2R community here and perhaps some that dealt with something like this...

Thanks!
Attila

 

[Karen00]

I'm a noob so have no answers but wanted to say I am so sorry for your losses! That is incredibly heartbreaking considering how careful you are with QTing! I hope you get some answers from the experts that will allow you to continue with reassurance.

 

[blaxsun]

Questions:
1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert?
2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank?
3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host?
4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks!
5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful.

1. From what I understand yes, but it's exceedingly rare.
2. Maybe. If the clownfish was the first to go, chances are he was patient zero.
3. Yes (it's something like 76 days).
4. I believe periodic ghost feeding should keep everything going (someone else may want to weigh-in).
5. It's possible that velvet it was introduced to your tank at some point and the UV was keeping it at bay until the bulb burned out (or it simply multiplied to a point where it overwhelmed it), at which point it spread rapidly and overtook your otherwise healthy fish.

Not that long ago I purchased several quarantined fish that had gone through a complete copper treatment. They exhibited zero signs of velvet or other illness and were given a clean bill of health. Fast forward a few weeks when one of the QT fish started flashing and showed signs of stress. Shortly thereafter about a third of my fish dropped dead within 24-48 hours and another third exhibited the powder sparkly coating that was confirmed as velvet. I hooked up a oversized UV and treated the tank with Polyp Lab Medic (heavy dose), and the combination literally saved the remaining two thirds of my fish.

What I learned from this is that there are some strains of velvet that are immune to copper treatment, and while quarantining everything is a good plan - having it as the first and only line of defense often proves fatal if something sneaks in (as you and I have both found). So I've since adopted a different approach (based on some recommendations and insight from a marine biologist) and don't even bother to quarantine anymore. I run the oversize UV @90,000+ radiation, dip my corals and drip acclimate my fish and inverts - but otherwise everything goes straight in the tank. I feed my fish well - and often - and stay on top of my water parameters, skimmer, media and filter changes. If anything shows any signs of illness it's a quick 10-day Medic treatment (during which is an ideal time to introduce new reef inhabitants).

 

[jelazar]

So sorry this happened to you, especially after putting so much time and energy into quarantining in the first place.

1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert?

Yes. Marine velvet can be introduced by corals, cleaners, equipment, wet hands...almost anything.

2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank?

Yes. Velvet can live at low, low levels then erupt when something unrelated makes your fish less able to resist. It can be as simple as a juvenile fish begins to mature and defends it's territory more aggressively, disrupting the peace of your tank.

3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host?
Yes.

4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks!

Some bacteria will die off, but most will maintain a low level that springs back quickly when you add fish. If you plan on added a ton of fish all at once, you can accelerate the bacteria growth by feeding the tank well before you restock the tank.

5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful.

Could be about anything that disturbed the tank's equilibrium.

I really do appreciate all feedback, answers, etc. I want to turn to the R2R community here and perhaps some that dealt with something like this...

Thanks!
Attila

 

[attilak]

1. From what I understand yes, but it's exceedingly rare.
2. Maybe. If the clownfish was the first to go, chances are he was patient zero.
3. Yes (it's something like 76 days).
4. I believe periodic ghost feeding should keep everything going (someone else may want to weigh-in).
5. It's possible that velvet it was introduced to your tank at some point and the UV was keeping it at bay until the bulb burned out (or it simply multiplied to a point where it overwhelmed it), at which point it spread rapidly and overtook your otherwise healthy fish.

Not that long ago I purchased several quarantined fish that had gone through a complete copper treatment. They exhibited zero signs of velvet or other illness and were given a clean bill of health. Fast forward a few weeks when one of the QT fish started flashing and showed signs of stress. Shortly thereafter about a third of my fish dropped dead within 24-48 hours and another third exhibited the powder sparkly coating that was confirmed as velvet. I hooked up a oversized UV and treated the tank with Polyp Lab Medic (heavy dose), and the combination literally saved the remaining two thirds of my fish.

What I learned from this is that there are some strains of velvet that are immune to copper treatment, and while quarantining everything is a good plan - having it as the first and only line of defense often proves fatal if something sneaks in (as you and I have both found). So I've since adopted a different approach (based on some recommendations and insight from a marine biologist) and don't even bother to quarantine anymore. I run the oversize UV @90,000+ radiation, dip my corals and drip acclimate my fish and inverts - but otherwise everything goes straight in the tank. I feed my fish well - and often - and stay on top of my water parameters, skimmer, media and filter changes. If anything shows any signs of illness it's a quick 10-day Medic treatment (during which is an ideal time to introduce new reef inhabitants).

Thanks so much for the quick response! I kick myself now about not noticing about the UV bulb - maybe I could of saved everything. But of course will never know for sure. The UV is plumbed in under tank in line so just don't look under there much as all of my equipment is in the basement, with the exception of the UV sterilizer and some flow controllers. Id o like your approach on the alternative to not QT. I will need to do some more research and see if I need to chance some of my methods if I decide to stay in the hobby. The one positive way of doing what you do is that copper is rough on fish anyway, so maybe do at least Prazi for internal parasites and then put fish in tank.

 

[attilak]

So sorry this happened to you, especially after putting so much time and energy into quarantining in the first place.

1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert?

Yes. Marine velvet can be introduced by corals, cleaners, equipment, wet hands...almost anything.

2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank?

Yes. Velvet can live at low, low levels then erupt when something unrelated makes your fish less able to resist. It can be as simple as a juvenile fish begins to mature and defends it's territory more aggressively, disrupting the peace of your tank.

3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host?
Yes.

4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks!

Some bacteria will die off, but most will maintain a low level that springs back quickly when you add fish. If you plan on added a ton of fish all at once, you can accelerate the bacteria growth by feeding the tank well before you restock the tank.

5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful.

Could be about anything that disturbed the tank's equilibrium.

I really do appreciate all feedback, answers, etc. I want to turn to the R2R community here and perhaps some that dealt with something like this...

Thanks!
Attila

Wow, this is scary of what you are saying if it is true that velvet can be introduced by inverts, cleanup crew. This is one I do not QT and just put in tank... how would I even make sure inverts have no velvet... cannot treat with anything.

 

[blaxsun]

Thanks so much for the quick response! I kick myself now about not noticing about the UV bulb - maybe I could of saved everything. But of course will never know for sure. The UV is plumbed in under tank in line so just don't look under there much as all of my equipment is in the basement, with the exception of the UV sterilizer and some flow controllers. Id o like your approach on the alternative to not QT. I will need to do some more research and see if I need to chance some of my methods if I decide to stay in the hobby. The one positive way of doing what you do is that copper is rough on fish anyway, so maybe do at least Prazi for internal parasites and then put fish in tank.

No problem at all. Don't beat yourself up about the UV bulb - it ultimately may not have made any difference anyway. At the time of my velvet outbreak I had an undersized UV, which is probably why it didn't strike right away and kill everything outright (lessons learned and applied). Right now I can run close to 1,050 Gph through my 57-watt UV and still get the 90,000 µw/cm2 in radiation - but I'm probably running half that and getting closer to 180,000 µw/cm2 instead.

I learned several things from my ordeal: QT is never 100% (and has a high fatality rate), illness can piggyback on literally anything and I can't catch my fish if their life depends on it (one of the downsides of designing the aquascaping for the enjoyment of your fish).

 

[davidcalgary29]

Wow, this is scary of what you are saying if it is true that velvet can be introduced by inverts, cleanup crew. This is one I do not QT and just put in tank... how would I even make sure inverts have no velvet... cannot treat with anything.

You have to be really careful these days and assume that anything wet that goes into the tank is potential disease vector. There's just no other way to keep your fish safe.

I lost 5 out of 6 fish to a disease outbreak in early August, and that tank's just completed its fallow period. I have no idea what wiped out the tank, as none of the fish exhibited any notable symptoms. The sole survivor recovered after being put into a copper quarantine, so I'd assume that it was some ectoparasite.

My point, I suppose, is that there are many diseases going around the aquarium supply chain, and unless you perform a microscopic analysis, some things are just guesswork. This is one of the reasons why I maintain my quarantine and observation tanks (I have two).

 

[attilak]

You have to be really careful these days and assume that anything wet that goes into the tank is potential disease vector. There's just no other way to keep your fish safe.

I lost 5 out of 6 fish to a disease outbreak in early August, and that tank's just completed its fallow period. I have no idea what wiped out the tank, as none of the fish exhibited any notable symptoms. The sole survivor recovered after being put into a copper quarantine, so I'd assume that it was some ectoparasite.

My point, I suppose, is that there are many diseases going around the aquarium supply chain, and unless you perform a microscopic analysis, some things are just guesswork. This is one of the reasons why I maintain my quarantine and observation tanks (I have two).

yup, couldn't agree with you more on QT! I have good friends, actually ones who got me into the hobby that pretty much don't even acclimate but take fish from LFS and put in the tank. I have never done this, but had introduced ich in my reef tank a year or so ago and was a disaster. Since then I just invested in tanks in basement, treat, monitor, etc. this is why I am very frustrated knowing that some guys are so dang lucky with not QT and then me who takes on this extra level of effort and yet get screwed.

 

[attilak]

Update; so I moved my last remaining fish that is still alive (Male crosshatch) into quarantine tank with golden heart. I did do a 5 min. fresh water dip and now drip acclimating. My concern is that I am running copper at 2.5 ppm using Copper Power. I know drop acclimating is not the same as I am planning to acclimate for 2 hrs and put in 75 gal. I don't have much choice here ...

I also have an important question; so what I noticed is that some of the live rock is turning white (see pic). What is this from? is it bacteria dying off?

 

[Tamberav]

Wow, this is scary of what you are saying if it is true that velvet can be introduced by inverts, cleanup crew. This is one I do not QT and just put in tank... how would I even make sure inverts have no velvet... cannot treat with anything.

You QT them by having a separate tank away from the DT where you add corals and inverts in a fishless environment so the parasite cycle would die/break. 45 days at 82 degrees is what I do.


1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert? - Yes
2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank? - Yes
3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host? - Yes
4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks! No, the bacteria will not die off. Fish are optional. Worms, inverts, pods, corals.. they all have a bioload. It will be fine. Once it is cycled, it is cycled. Fish or no fish. People don't keep fish in 2g jars or their invert QT tanks.
5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful. Possible something came in on an invert or copper resistant velvet or copper dipped from therapeutic, etc.

 

[attilak]

You QT them by having a separate tank away from the DT where you add corals and inverts in a fishless environment so the parasite cycle would die/break. 45 days at 82 degrees is what I do.


1. Can velvet be introduced in tank by invert? - Yes
2. Can fish carry this for months and if stressed perhaps infect the tank? - Yes
3. If I were to let tank sit without fish, will velvet eventually be gone as there is no host? - Yes
4. If tank sits without fish, will beneficial bacteria die off ? and what is the recommendation to keep tank going? this is a 5 year old tank, if I decided to stay in the hobby I DO NOT want to go through establishing a tank again. It sucks! No, the bacteria will not die off. Fish are optional. Worms, inverts, pods, corals.. they all have a bioload. It will be fine.
5. Any thoughts what may have happened when I QT all fish, Copper & Prazi - 2 mo. before introducing anything. All fish were happy, eating and one day kaboom. what the heck. sorry but this is frustrating. It's almost as if it's useless in go through quarantine procedure as I am so darn careful. Possible something came in on an invert or copper resistant velvet or copper dipped from therapeutic, etc.

Thank you! any idea why some of the rocks are turning white? also, when you state that inverts can carry velvet. Is there a method to QT them too?

 

[Tamberav]

Thank you! any idea why some of the rocks are turning white? also, when you state that inverts can carry velvet. Is there a method to QT them too?

The green on the rock is algae. Did you make any changes or add anything to the display tank? It could be the algae is dieing back since no giant fish poops. The bacteria will be fine though.

Here is all things invert QT:

Coral/Invert Quarantine Time Frames

Coral/Invert Quarantine Time Frames IMPORTANT UPDATE: Raising aquarium temperature to 27C/80.6F can shorten the coral/invert isolation period to 6 weeks: New Ich Fallow Period Preface: The purpose of this article is to outline time periods required to properly quarantine (QT) marine corals &...

humble.fish

 

[attilak]

Guys, so after a rough go at this velvet, which pretty much took out everything with the exception of a chromi and cleaner wrasse, what is next? I am deadly scared to even add anything to this tank now.

My plan is to convert this 220 FOWLR to a reef tank. Eventually I will start to add fish but my main question is the steps I should take to ensure it is free of any disease. Some of the information out there is to run tank for 6 months without any fish. Is this accurate? I do plan on starting put to anemones as well as corals in the tank. I have inverts like a giant crab, lobster as well as cleanup crew. I assume that is OK.

The fish that's in there now will be a pain to catch! should I just leave them in there, or is that a risk that they can still carry velvet.

It would be great to hear from someone that dealt with this similar issue and how they were able to turn everything around.

Thank you!

 

[nereefpat]

My plan would be to let the tank run fallow (completely fishless) to let the velvet die. I would catch the fish. I know it's a pain.

Fallow period for velvet is nowhere near 6 months. Fallow for velvet is 6 weeks.

Velvet can't use inverts as a host, so they don't impact the fallow period, so you can leave them in there.

There is some risk with adding anything else that is wet that you don't QT, as it can introduce disease. You'll have to decide your own risk tolerance there.

 

[MichaelReefer]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[davidcalgary29]

My advice is to turn it into a reef system before reintroducing fish into the tank. If you get the inverts and algae that you want now, you can quarantine them in your display while the tank goes fallow. Quarantining inverts can be even more problematic than fish for some people, so it's a great way to get both of your objectives at the same time.

 

[attilak]

My plan would be to let the tank run fallow (completely fishless) to let the velvet die. I would catch the fish. I know it's a pain.

Fallow period for velvet is nowhere near 6 months. Fallow for velvet is 6 weeks.

Velvet can't use inverts as a host, so they don't impact the fallow period, so you can leave them in there.

There is some risk with adding anything else that is wet that you don't QT, as it can introduce disease. You'll have to decide your own risk tolerance there.

Thank you and yes, I meant 6 weeks! to be on the safe side I was going to wait at least 8 weeks to introduce anything. I actually purchased an 80 gal frag tank - was going to get something smaller but the only one I can get my hands on... lol. seems like there is a shortage of everything these days. So with the 80 gal, I am going to setup a QT for corals. I just know that I ran into issues with corals too and seems they come with all sorts of things. What I learned in this hobby is that cutting corners is not an option!