Vendors Gone Insane?

Vendors Gone Insane?


  • Total voters
    281

dvanrij

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
164
Reaction score
74
TSA is just as bad. I won’t participate in either a live sales. I agree with the OP. I also think that it is a good thing to get various opinions out there especially to newcomers on R2R. Everyone has heard of WWC and often the newcomers jump on that bandwagon to buy overpriced corals because of brand recognition. I am a capitalist, and more power to wwc for excellent sales tactics. As an informed consumer it’d be prudent for most to stay away from places like TSA and WWC. In my opinion one of the best vendors is AquaSD. Their Acros have been a bit meh lately but their LPS and other SPS are priced fantastically.
 
World Wide Corals - Quality Aqua-cultured Coral

blstravler

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 5, 2019
Messages
327
Reaction score
268
Location
Coastal New Jersey
Just compare their prices with other vendors that don't move a large amount of their corals through live sales.

I watched one of the more recent WWC live sales before I knew what they were, and it became 100% evident to me why they do them. It's a tactic to have hobbyists competing against each other to "win" corals at prices that are still above market value. They're encouraging impulse decision making to move more product at higher prices. Not to mention these are live animals we are talking about...
Again - you make accusations yet you have zero back up - let me help.

During the TSA live sale I paid..

$89 for Dan A. their cut to order is currently $120
$35 for Christmas Mirabilis their current price is $81
$60 for UC Dippin Dots their current price is between - $80 and 180
$20 for Miyagi Tort their current price is $60
$40 for PC Rainbow Acro their current price is $80
$30 for Fruity Pebbles Monti their current price is $45

How are those prices above market value? What I paid is cheaper then I can find it anywhere and I have looked. I also only purchase frags that are encrusted on the plug and not freshly glued.

Again if your going to go after WWC or TSA or any vendor - at least have some back up - not just hypothetical claims. If WWC and TSA were jacking up their prices by 40% before a live sale - everyone would notice and I would even think R2R would call crap.

If you don't like the pricing on "high end" or "Designer" corals that's fine - but don't make up things to support your point that isn't true. Or please by all means post up what you paid during any of the live sales and how you paid more then current cost on the live sale vendors web site?
 

N2950H

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 6, 2019
Messages
342
Reaction score
699
Location
Seattle
While I'm not going to chastise a company for trying to make a few bucks on a hot item, I will make a mental note and remember that next time I go shopping. If enough people did this, these threads would stop popping up because prices would come back down due to supply and demand. A couple examples from some other hobbies of mine:

1) Last year I was looking at a new car, a Shelby GT350. MSRP was around $60k, but some dealers were asking for an insane dealer mark-up that they called "market adjustment" which tacked on an additional $20k-$25k just so you could be among the first to own it. Not only would I never pay a dealer markup beyond MSRP, but I will never set foot on those dealer lots again. They're dead to me.

2) Shortly after the Sandy Hook shootings in the US, there was a run on high capacity magazines for AR15 rifles. Normally ranging from $10-20 ea, one dealer in particular was charging $100 ea for the ones they were able to get a hold of. From that day forward, I have never considered buying anything from them on principle alone. I don't care what their prices are from here on out.

The problem with these types of things is there always enough people out there with money that will pay these ridiculous prices, so there is no real motivation for the vendors to knock it off. Sometimes they can be shamed a bit via social media, but it doesn't fix the overall issue.
 

pdxmonkeyboy

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
1,487
Reaction score
1,827
I can appreciate the sentiment of this thread, for sure coral prices have skyrocketed. We talk about new members being taken advantage off, and some websites obviously manipulating their pictures beyond what is reasonable.

Sooo.. why isn't there a poll or thread about which vendors are a ripoff? Because the sponsor things here? Because the thread would most certainly go off the rails? It would be a nightmare of a thread but some patterns would emerge and some vendors would learn that if they are going to charge $80 for a green slimmer... there are those that are experienced in the hobby are going to call them out. The forum is about expressing ideas ans helping others, drawing attention to poor business practices could help the matter..no?

Just a thought.
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
8,864
Completely agree with you. They list acro frags like the one I pictured as XL like no not even close to XL. I could almost count the number of polyps on my fingers and toes lol.
Great - then you know not to purchase their corals - case closed. They can label their stuff and price their stuff any way they want. For some reason - people are willing to pay the price - whether its quality, health of stock, etc etc - IDK. But - lets put it this way - If I buy 5 frags from company a costing 60$/frag and 4 of them die quickly or dont survive shipping - and I buy 1 frag from company b for $250 and it survives and grows - whats the better deal?
 
Corals.com

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
8,864
While I'm not going to chastise a company for trying to make a few bucks on a hot item, I will make a mental note and remember that next time I go shopping. If enough people did this, these threads would stop popping up because prices would come back down due to supply and demand. A couple examples from some other hobbies of mine:

1) Last year I was looking at a new car, a Shelby GT350. MSRP was around $60k, but some dealers were asking for an insane dealer mark-up that they called "market adjustment" which tacked on an additional $20k-$25k just so you could be among the first to own it. Not only would I never pay a dealer markup beyond MSRP, but I will never set foot on those dealer lots again. They're dead to me.

2) Shortly after the Sandy Hook shootings in the US, there was a run on high capacity magazines for AR15 rifles. Normally ranging from $10-20 ea, one dealer in particular was charging $100 ea for the ones they were able to get a hold of. From that day forward, I have never considered buying anything from them on principle alone. I don't care what their prices are from here on out.

The problem with these types of things is there always enough people out there with money that will pay these ridiculous prices, so there is no real motivation for the vendors to knock it off. Sometimes they can be shamed a bit via social media, but it doesn't fix the overall issue.
I kind of agree with you - but what you're saying doesnt make complete sense to me. For example - using your ammunition example - how were they able to charge 100$ when a person could walk down the street and get them for $10-20? Or was there a shortage? Note - I dont think price gouging is right or 'fair' - but I dont see coral prices in the same light (at least - I havent seen any evidence of that type of behavior.
 

Eggs

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
500
Reaction score
173
Location
South Florida
So I bought a fair amount of corals during their last live sale. I look at what I bought and their current prices and I roughly saved 1400. I’ve also purchased a fair amount at their eBay auctions and have saved even more.

So maybe you could provide and example of them raising their prices 40% before a live sale? I’m not defending WWC but if you’re going to accuse them of something proof is usually a good thing to start with? I also saved about a 1,000 during the last TSA live sale - and I won a GC.

At the end of the day people see value in some things and some people don’t. Doesn’t mean you have to purchase what you don’t value nor does it mean you should accuse them of shady business practices without proof.
Regarding WWC online pricing, a store employee admitted to me the online prices are higher than the retail store prices. Obviously many reefers aren’t close enough to enjoy the advantage of visiting the store. However it doesn’t mean you have to pay the higher price if you can find it elsewhere.

Example of the pricing tactic. I liked the frag pictured below off of their web site and was waiting for a sale. When they had a web site sale (not live sale, don’t think I’ve ever seen this coral on their live sales) that frag was sold before I could buy it.
Fortunately for me I only live a couple of hours away and always stop in the store when I’m in Orlando.
Showed the picture of the coral to a store employee and they had 3 frags available. I bought one for $45 if I remember correctly.......the web site price was 75% higher.
That employee is the one who said the online prices are much higher.

Not sure how accurate the savings is when comparing to their original online prices.

I took a look at what was being offered during the recent live sale and the pricing, it wasn’t anything to get excited about nor waste a lot of time following.



1C168820-0CA9-47E5-A6EA-D9B04877657B.png
their
 

rkpetersen

walked the sand with the crustaceans
View Badges
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
3,850
Reaction score
6,613
Location
Near Seattle
This hobby is full to bursting with unbridled greed.
Some people still think greed and looking out just for oneself are good behaviors.
I don't.
 

dduby

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
129
Reaction score
175
Location
MO
Vendors aren't the only ones perpetuating the high prices. I see many for sale threads by hobbyists with sky high prices as well. Just take a look at the market place.

But, i don't feel the blame is on the sellers entirely. We as buyers should shoulder some of the fault.

Anyways i'm going to get back to scouring the internet for that OG Bubba Gump sunset iced tea burst.
 

N2950H

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 6, 2019
Messages
342
Reaction score
699
Location
Seattle
I kind of agree with you - but what you're saying doesnt make complete sense to me. For example - using your ammunition example - how were they able to charge 100$ when a person could walk down the street and get them for $10-20? Or was there a shortage? Note - I dont think price gouging is right or 'fair' - but I dont see coral prices in the same light (at least - I havent seen any evidence of that type of behavior.
Sorry, the $10-20 per mag was prior to the shortage.
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
8,864
Sorry, the $10-20 per mag was prior to the shortage.
Right - I got that I was just asking - were all of the companies charging the really high prices - or was it just the one that you stopped visiting - to me there is a difference. After all retail is 'supply and demand'.
 

N2950H

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 6, 2019
Messages
342
Reaction score
699
Location
Seattle
Right - I got that I was just asking - were all of the companies charging the really high prices - or was it just the one that you stopped visiting - to me there is a difference. After all retail is 'supply and demand'.
They were definitely the only ones gouging that badly from what I saw.
 

Sisterlimonpot

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
511
Reaction score
815
Location
Litchfield Park
Again - you make accusations yet you have zero back up - let me help.

During the TSA live sale I paid..

$89 for Dan A. their cut to order is currently $120
$35 for Christmas Mirabilis their current price is $81
$60 for UC Dippin Dots their current price is between - $80 and 180
$20 for Miyagi Tort their current price is $60
$40 for PC Rainbow Acro their current price is $80
$30 for Fruity Pebbles Monti their current price is $45

How are those prices above market value? What I paid is cheaper then I can find it anywhere and I have looked. I also only purchase frags that are encrusted on the plug and not freshly glued.

Again if your going to go after WWC or TSA or any vendor - at least have some back up - not just hypothetical claims. If WWC and TSA were jacking up their prices by 40% before a live sale - everyone would notice and I would even think R2R would call crap.

If you don't like the pricing on "high end" or "Designer" corals that's fine - but don't make up things to support your point that isn't true. Or please by all means post up what you paid during any of the live sales and how you paid more then current cost on the live sale vendors web site?
You're basing your savings off of the same place you purchased the corals from. That's not a good comparison. That's like when my wife comes home with bags full of stuff from Kohl's and says she saved $XXX because they cleverly put their "sale price" right next to the "retail price" when in fact the retail price is ALWAYS the sale price... NO SAVINGS!! Or when supermarkets want to track what we purchase so they make us carry a card that offers savings when you use it, when really the sticker price is elevated so that you feel good about using that card that tracks your purchases so that they can market goods to the proper demographic. The consumer is being manipulated so that businesses can better market products at NO cost to them and NO savings to you. Yet I digress...

You raise a good point, what never squares with me and I think the underlying purpose of this thread is, "who gets to choose the price? And how do they get people to pay it?"

I read "supply and demand" supply and demand" and I wish I could wrap my mind around that as well.

I can see how it can be construed as supply and demand, but when the company has their finger on the scale, then it's no longer that simple.

How do you create demand? well the easy way is what we all learned in 8th grade economics, unfortunately that's as far as most of our knowledge goes, a teacher explained in clear detail the definition of supply and demand and it wasn't a hard concept to grasp. The scenario you were given to understand in school isn't the end of how we determine value. Supply and demand dictates the monetary value of an item but through market manipulation they can oversale a product, make you want something that you really don't need (like the shelby GT). At that point there is an over fabricated demand for this stuff. Marketing preys on the unknowing, a good marketing campaign forces someone to need something that they never knew they even wanted. They manipulate you to think that YOU were the one that made an informed decision to give away YOU'RE hard earned money when all they did was cleverly control YOUR purchasing power.

I've said in other threads that marketing in this niche community has really grown up, and that's why I applaud threads like this because it educates the masses that the price that is set solely by a small group doesn't dictate the value, but in most peoples minds it does. We have to change that way of thinking, only then will companies like wwc realize that they no longer have control over how we spend our money.

I put the blame on uneducated consumers, but I also point the finger at the companies that operate in this fashion, they have an ethical obligation to center their morale compass.




Vendors aren't the only ones perpetuating the high prices. I see many for sale threads by hobbyists with sky high prices as well. Just take a look at the market place.

But, i don't feel the blame is on the sellers entirely. We as buyers should shoulder some of the fault.
I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around. Addressing your first statement, hobbyist that unwittingly purchase coral at the manipulated price feels they have an obligation to sell the same coral for the same price or for a slightly discounted price, when all along the discounted price is still over REAL market value.

The other day I asked a hobbyist that has turned his hobby into a bunch of frag tanks, how he determines price?
His answer,"I go online and see what they are selling for". It's safe to assume he's not the only one. WE will never get control of prices if common sense doesn't take the wheel. We just need to educate the masses and hope to see fair prices in the future.
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
8,864
You're basing your savings off of the same place you purchased the corals from. That's not a good comparison. That's like when my wife comes home with bags full of stuff from Kohl's and says she saved $XXX because they cleverly put their "sale price" right next to the "retail price" when in fact the retail price is ALWAYS the sale price... NO SAVINGS!! Or when supermarkets want to track what we purchase so they make us carry a card that offers savings when you use it, when really the sticker price is elevated so that you feel good about using that card that tracks your purchases so that they can market goods to the proper demographic. The consumer is being manipulated so that businesses can better market products at NO cost to them and NO savings to you. Yet I digress...

You raise a good point, what never squares with me and I think the underlying purpose of this thread is, "who gets to choose the price? And how do they get people to pay it?"

I read "supply and demand" supply and demand" and I wish I could wrap my mind around that as well.

I can see how it can be construed as supply and demand, but when the company has their finger on the scale, then it's no longer that simple.

How do you create demand? well the easy way is what we all learned in 8th grade economics, unfortunately that's as far as most of our knowledge goes, a teacher explained in clear detail the definition of supply and demand and it wasn't a hard concept to grasp. The scenario you were given to understand in school isn't the end of how we determine value. Supply and demand dictates the monetary value of an item but through market manipulation they can oversale a product, make you want something that you really don't need (like the shelby GT). At that point there is an over fabricated demand for this stuff. Marketing preys on the unknowing, a good marketing campaign forces someone to need something that they never knew they even wanted. They manipulate you to think that YOU were the one that made an informed decision to give away YOU'RE hard earned money when all they did was cleverly control YOUR purchasing power.

I've said in other threads that marketing in this niche community has really grown up, and that's why I applaud threads like this because it educates the masses that the price that is set solely by a small group doesn't dictate the value, but in most peoples minds it does. We have to change that way of thinking, only then will companies like wwc realize that they no longer have control over how we spend our money.

I put the blame on uneducated consumers, but I also point the finger at the companies that operate in this fashion, they have an ethical obligation to center their morale compass.






I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around. Addressing your first statement, hobbyist that unwittingly purchase coral at the manipulated price feels they have an obligation to sell the same coral for the same price or for a slightly discounted price, when all along the discounted price is still over REAL market value.

The other day I asked a hobbyist that has turned his hobby into a bunch of frag tanks, how he determines price?
His answer,"I go online and see what they are selling for". It's safe to assume he's not the only one. WE will never get control of prices if common sense doesn't take the wheel. We just need to educate the masses and hope to see fair prices in the future.
This makes a lot of sense - but - if you're going to call out coral vendors that are 'creating demand by marketing' - then you're going to be going after almost every company in the US - and world-wide. Some examples - going out of business sales - where the prices are marked up 50% the night before the '50% off sale'. In any case - in 100% of cases - the price someone can charge is no more than what someone is willing to pay. So - if a guy goes online to do his pricing - he may find out 'a price' - but it may be a price that no one will pay.

Its like those ads that say ' some old toys are worth thousands of dollars' - they then go to ebay - and quote listings - which are indeed in the 1000's of dollars. However no one has ever paid that price - its total fiction. I won't name the vendor - but - I wanted several coral one time - I just called and said 'would you take xxxx $ for these 5 corals - which was about a 50% discount - he said - 'ok'.

Its all about not being willing to pay high prices - not complaining about them and saying they're 'unfair' IMO.
 

HB AL

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
1,899
Reaction score
2,283
Location
H.B, California
I'm gonna try and make a comparison and hopefully it makes sense. The difference between corals that are live animals and for example a car with a 3 year warranty or say a fishing reel with a 1 year warranty is the real difference with the HIGH price on a very small frag alot of online vendors charge. If those frags came with a 1 year warranty then it would be worth it to most versus what is offered now because let's face it corals especially acros do die and if they came with say a 1 year warranty then the price might be more acceptable. If my car breaks down or a reel and it's still within the warranty period it gets fixed no charge, out of warranty you either take it to a car mechanic or a reel service person and get it fixed or if you can you fix it yourself. When a coral dies your out of luck theres no warranty (1 or 2 week warranty is really not a warranty) so if the coral dies you cant take it to a shop and get it fixed. Hope that perspective made sense.;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Corals.com

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,990
Reaction score
8,864
I'm gonna try and make a comparison and hopefully it makes sense. The difference between corals that are live animals and for example a car with a 3 year warranty or say a fishing reel with a 1 year warranty is the real difference with the HIGH price on a very small frag alot of online vendors charge. If those frags came with a 1 year warranty then it would be worth it to most versus what is offered now because let's face it corals especially acros do die and if they came with say a 1 year warranty then the price might be more acceptable. If my car breaks down or a reel and it's still within the warranty period it gets fixed no charge, out of warranty you either take it to a car mechanic or a reel service person and get it fixed or if you can you fix it yourself. When a coral dies your out of luck theres no warranty (1 or 2 week warranty is really not a warranty) so if the coral dies you cant take it to a shop and get it fixed. Hope that perspective made sense.;)
Personally I have no clue what you're saying. There is no company on earth that could guarantee a 1 year life span for a coral (unlike a puppy). How could that ever happen (i.e.a long warranty). how would a company ever prove that it wasn't a power failure or something else that killed the coral - just look at some of the posts on this very site saying that a poster that had broken his new Red Sea tank himself - should just lie and say it was damaged in shipping. If you dont think that happens with fish, corals, etc - I think you're probably wrong.Part of the high prices is people scamming the vendors as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AngryMike2016

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Messages
938
Reaction score
1,551
No - you can buy those frags elsewhere - than WWC. If they are cheaper elsewhere. buy them there. This is a crazy thread. No one is forcing anyone to buy expensive corals. The solution is for people to stop buying - and the price will come down. Or buy from vendors that have a lower price. If WWC ( Ne er ordered from them) has high prices and then has a sale - good on them. So what lol
No one is forcing you to participate in this thread either.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

Do you run TWO return pumps for redundancy and to be safe? (check all that apply)

  • Yes I run two return pumps..

    Votes: 75 23.1%
  • No it's a waste..

    Votes: 36 11.1%
  • No but I would like to..

    Votes: 80 24.6%
  • No but I have a spare return pump...

    Votes: 154 47.4%

Online statistics

Members online
2,128
Guests online
4,691
Total visitors
6,819
Zoanthids.com
Top