Victoria Music's Custom 180 Rebuild

[crusso1993]

I do not know if you know her but @ngoodermuth has an outstanding handle on QT. I have witnessed her help a few people out and was impressed. It also seems obvious that she happens to be very kind and caring!

 

[Victoria M]

I do not know if you know her but @ngoodermuth has an outstanding handle on QT. I have witnessed her help a few people out and was impressed. It also seems obvious the she happens to be very kind and caring!

Yes, I agree. She has helped me too.

 

[User]

I do not know if you know her but @ngoodermuth has an outstanding handle on QT. I have witnessed her help a few people out and was impressed. It also seems obvious the she happens to be very kind and caring!

Agreed. Read many of her insightful and helpful posts.

 

[Brew12]

I know you are going a different route with your anthias this time, but what do you think?

Hey @Brew12 ! Help me out on the anthias bro! I haven’t read up on proper qt for them in like a year since I lost my last batch. What you thinking of doing different ?

Guys, I'm not sure you want my honest opinion. I'm no longer going to prophylacticlly treat any fish. The more I learn, the more I think that it is the worst thing we can do if we want to run a successful system. I stopped QT'ing inverts over a year ago. I just added 6 dispars, a coral beauty, jester goby and purple dottyback. The only reason they spent time in a QT system was to raise salinity from 1.016 to 1.026 slower.

 

[crusso1993]

Guys, I'm not sure you want my honest opinion. I'm no longer going to prophylacticlly treat any fish. The more I learn, the more I think that it is the worst thing we can do if we want to run a successful system. I stopped QT'ing inverts over a year ago. I just added 6 dispars, a coral beauty, jester goby and purple dottyback. The only reason they spent time in a QT system was to raise salinity from 1.016 to 1.026 slower.

Hhmmmm... sounds like our Swedish friends are rubbing off. Oh, and PaulB too.

 

[Brew12]

Hhmmmm... sounds like our Swedish friends are rubbing off. Oh, and PaulB too.

They have helped give me the confidence, but it was local reefers who really made me think. Why was I having an impossible time with anything other than hardy fish but struggling so much with anything remotely delicate. Local reefers, buying from the same sources I do, have lost many fewer fish with no QT at all.
The Seattle Aquarium stopped prophylactic treatments back around 2011 and the mortality rate for their tropical fish went from around 40% to under 5%. Once I started seeing how fish farmers have used probiotics to greatly reduce mortality rates it all started clicking.
Of course, the new fish have only been in my tank for less than 2 full days so it could all come down like a house of cards. I do worry that I damaged my current fish with their previous treatments but I'm hoping that the years of high quality food and low stress will protect them.

 

[najer]

They have helped give me the confidence, but it was local reefers who really made me think. Why was I having an impossible time with anything other than hardy fish but struggling so much with anything remotely delicate. Local reefers, buying from the same sources I do, have lost many fewer fish with no QT at all.
The Seattle Aquarium stopped prophylactic treatments back around 2011 and the mortality rate for their tropical fish went from around 40% to under 5%. Once I started seeing how fish farmers have used probiotics to greatly reduce mortality rates it all started clicking.
Of course, the new fish have only been in my tank for less than 2 full days so it could all come down like a house of cards. I do worry that I damaged my current fish with their previous treatments but I'm hoping that the years of high quality food and low stress will protect them.

Different side of the pond, I never qt fish, I trust my lfs (they import to them) and their wholesaler (they have a depot at heathrow).
It appears to be a supply chain issue as mentioned before, why stress fish more by hitting them with chemicals?
I can understand extended observation, let them settle, hopefully things will settle soon in the States, it grieves me when I hear about fish lost in qt!

 

[Brew12]

It appears to be a supply chain issue as mentioned before, why stress fish more by hitting them with chemicals?
I can understand extended observation, let them settle, hopefully things will settle soon in the States, it grieves me when I hear about fish lost in qt!

I used to tell myself it was a supply chain issue, too, but I don't think its accurate anymore. The supply chain may be worse than ever but I don't think it is a huge factor. Plenty of people local to me are still having no issues, same supply chain.

 

[najer]

I used to tell myself it was a supply chain issue, too, but I don't think its accurate anymore. The supply chain may be worse than ever but I don't think it is a huge factor. Plenty of people local to me are still having no issues, same supply chain.

Makes me wonder if custom and practice says you must qt when what you are doing to perfectly healthy fish is to stress them that can bring on issues?!

 

[User]

I used to tell myself it was a supply chain issue, too, but I don't think its accurate anymore. The supply chain may be worse than ever but I don't think it is a huge factor. Plenty of people local to me are still having no issues, same supply chain.

That’s interesting.

Local scene here is a **** show. Many people losing tanks and quitting at the 4 month mark due to big disease related die offs. Ive been steadfastly QTing EVERYTHING and there’s is no live rock seeding in my tank. It’s all biospira and frtiz9 populated brs reefsaver and bleached pukani. Tank is critter- sterile as a result and I have a Chrysophytes outbreak because I had open niches everywhere for it to take hold. I’ve never had GHA, diatoms for like 4 days.

I think my PhD parasitilogy microbiology training and disease paranoia pushed me too far against the sterile side.

Im a year in and have 7 fish, no corals because I’m stil QTing those - done next week. No tiny feather dusters, no pineapple sponges, no little worms.

I’ll admit my resolve is failing and I’m considering going the route you just described. Acclimate and add to DT. I just don’t have the testicular fortitude.

 

[Brew12]

Makes me wonder if custom and practice says you must qt when what you are doing to perfectly healthy fish is to stress them that can bring on issues?!

That, combined with improper stocking, are driving it imo. The only person local to me that has suffered a tank wipe in the last 3 years tried keeping 3 Acanturus tangs in a 180g system. Too much stress.

 

[User]

Makes me wonder if custom and practice says you must qt when what you are doing to perfectly healthy fish is to stress them that can bring on issues?!

Bit of both. I’ve seen diseased fish in stores, ich, black spot, flukes, intestinal stuff, uronema. So it’s there.

But I’ve lost a couple healthy looking fish with zero signs of disease. Just gone, after 10 days in QT. Beautiful pink spot goby for one. Replacement one spent 6 weeks in QT due to a cycle of flukes, worms, then a bacterial mouth infection. That dude got like 8 different medications. Cost me $250 or so to treat and house for the duration. For a $20 fish. A Midas blenny that lasted 3 days.

Without a disease diagnosis- QT stress is s definite possibility.

You guys in UK definitely have a different supply chain problem set. But back when I was still home doing this 20 years ago, we had different issues. Price. Outdated practices. Crappy equipment. But now everyone is experimenting, it’s looking good.

 

[Brew12]

I think my PhD parasitilogy microbiology training and disease paranoia pushed me too far against the sterile side.

I don't want to hijack Victoria's thread any further but I'd encourage you to read up on the role that pre and probiotics play in the fish immune system. With your background I think you will see why I've come to my current viewpoints.

 

[User]

I don't want to hijack Victoria's thread any further but I'd encourage you to read up on the role that pre and probiotics play in the fish immune system. With your background I think you will see why I've come to my current viewpoints.

Ive been following your thoughts on this idea for a little while.

You and paulB have been giving me conniptions and triggering me.

But I’m starting to critically dissect my year so far and I am beginning to think I’ve taken a couple misteps. I will be reevaluating.

If I know Victoria even a little, I’m sure she’s enjoying the conversation, but I agree. I’ll see you over on your thread. [emoji106]

 

[Victoria M]

I agree with all you said. Except I think the supply chain is a problem. So... I have already changed my QT plan based on my failures. And in the event that I stop prophylactically treating with copper I will maintain a smaller easily accessible tank for a month or more long quarantine. I believe I am going to leave copper behind but not 100% sure.
To my knowledge our zoo puts all new additions through a quarantine but don't prophylactically medicate. This just makes the most sense to me.

 

[Victoria M]

You are welcome to continue this discussion. I am the one that opened the door to you all.

 

[Brew12]

You are welcome to continue this discussion. I am the one that opened the door to you all.

Thanks! Maybe I wanted to move it for selfish reasons.... ;Sorry

Your thread is one of my internet happy places and this topic can get contentious.

 

[Victoria M]

@Brew12 do you remember when I suggested using my own probiotics to help with the QT process and cycle? It was a awhile ago, maybe on that thread about bottled bacteria? Anyway. I also shared on my thread seeing a great presentation LRS foods by the owner and he discussed his involvement in reproduction and spawning experiments. He developed the foods for the fish. I thought "oh I was onto something"
I talked to an infectious disease doctor who started giving all his patients lactobacillus to prevent c diff and he found it helped with many GI complications of oral and IV antibiotics.
Probiotics are worth the effort, excellent nutrition is worth the effort.
I do not think it is going to cure a disease, or purge parasites. It could help your fish improve his own immune response to win the battle.
If I observe signs of illness I am going to try to diagnose and treat the fish.

 

[Victoria M]

I believe those that frequent my thread regularly enjoy a good discussion. I hope that did not nvite any buttheads.

 

[Victoria M]

Oh hello Lowell @Lowell Lemon
What are your thoughts on this? Sometimes I read your posts and wonder are you / have you worked in the supply side of the hobby?