Water Changes and or Dosing Trace Elements

[reefiniteasy]

If you do not have the time and energy to do that, then I'd suggest a trace element mix dosed at the recommended level using an additive mix from a company you trust, such as Tropic Marin A and K.

This is actually what I started to do at Randy’s suggestion for my 25 Lagoon softy tank. I do a weekly 4.5 gallon water change on my softy tank to keep Alk, Ca and Mg where it should be. Over the course of a week I see slight drop in Ca and Mg. The water change fixes this. I then dose Tropic Marin A & K daily at their suggested dose of 1ml to 100 liters which works out to .68ml of A & K. I have see. No negative effects after a week of this. I swear I see increased growth in my Zoas, lots of new polyps over the last week. I sent off an ICP test after a few days of dosing to see how many come back elevated. We’ll see what happens.

 

[Steve2020]

Not surprising at all. That's a very complicated question without any perfect answer for every system.

Do not assume that water changes are the biggest source of trace elements in most tanks,. Foods will be, if you are not dosing.

Water changes and foods are enough to keep great tanks, but are often not enough to maintain NSW levels of trace elements. Is that necessary? There's little data on what minimum (or maximum) level of trace elements are needed for the organisms we keep.

ICP also says nothing about the chemical form of different trace elements so cannot say how bioavailable they are.

If you have the time and interest, I think a trial and error approach, starting with an ICP from a good company, followed by raising one at a time to NSW levels and seeing if the tank apparently improves in some way is a good approach.

If you do not have the time and energy to do that, then I'd suggest a trace element mix dosed at the recommended level using an additive mix from a company you trust, such as Tropic Marin A and K.

Excellent info Randy. Appreciate it. I had some mixed bag results in the past with the ATI ICP test as I mentioned above. The two simultaneous test I submitted that one time had me thinking how accurate these ICP test really are. Was surprised on a few of the element readings. Do you have a recommendation on a good ICP company? When you mention using a good trace element mix at the recommended levels such as Tropic Marine A and K, I looked at those along with the Red Sea Colors ABCD. The A and K is dosed based on water volume and ABCD is dosed on calcium uptake. I picked the ABCD based off some info that there is a ratio between the depletion of calcium and trace elements. That makes it easy to measure out the correct dose if true. Is that a true statement in your opinion? If it is, then how can you dose A and K just off of total water volume daily not taking consideration in the amount of daily calcium depletion in the water. That was the question I was asking myself so I decided to go with ABCD.
I know you trust Tropic Marine A and K but I would like your opinion on Red Sea ABCD if you don't mind.
Thanks Again.

 

[Reefer Matt]

The new trend is no water changes with icp testing. I do water changes because I can afford to, and change about 120 gallons a month on 300 gallons of tank volume (5 tanks). I dose 2 part in my sps reef, the rest is taken care of by the water changes. I have no desire to be a chemist, or chase numbers, so it works for me.

 

[Steven Garland]

That is definitely not a reason to use it, IMO. Brightwell products have long shown a distinct lack of chemical understanding.

That really wasn't a reason to try it,just a little background info I know lol thats all.

 

[rtparty]

Excellent info. Appreciate it. So, I am curious about one thing. If you would never blindly dose trace elements, then are you saying that the Red Sea Colors ABCD instructions are false? They correlate the dosing on calcium uptake. Is that a false statement? The way I understand their instructions is they say that the elements are depleted at a ratio of calcium depletion.

There is no way every single tank out there is consuming elements in a perfect ratio. We can’t even measure accurately enough to know that.

I add Tropic Marin A and K to my 2 part at half the recommended dose. I used to be all in on Reef Moonshiners but after 2 years realized it’s nothing more than a giant guessing game with absolutely no clue what each trace element does. Person A will claim element X does this, yet Persons B, C, and D all dose it and don’t see similar results. Then someone asks Randy what does element X actually do and his response is usually, “It has no known role in any biological function.” Or something similar.

I know this isn’t about Reef Moonshiners in any way but just adding my experience with trace elements and why I think mass dosing them likely isn’t yielding any quantifiable results. I quit the RM method a few months back and my tank may actually look better than it ever has. I attribute this to maturation more than anything but can clearly tell my tank doesn’t seem to care I stopped dosing 15 different trace elements. I only added the A and K to my 2 part a few weeks ago and at half dose as mentioned before.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Both mL per day per gallon and mL per day per ppm calcium or alk uptake are inherently flawed.

The Red Sea approach is flawed by assuming that calcium uptake is related to trace element uptake. That is likely true for a single SPS coral, and maybe not off much for all sps corals. But what about other users that take up trace elements and no calcium, such as macroalgae, bacteria, or most soft corals? Those may be the main users in many reef aquaria.

The tropic Marin approach is flawed by assuming all tanks use about the same amount of trace elements per day per gallon,

I’m guessing that the TM approach can be designed to match a typical aquarium, and never suggests no dosing like Red Sea might. The Red Sea approach would seriously fail in an all soft coral tank with little coralline and lots of macroalgae where little or no trace element mix is added..

 

[Steve2020]

Both mL per day per gallon and mL per day per ppm calcium or alk uptake are inherently flawed.

The Red Sea approach is flawed by assuming that calcium uptake is related to trace element uptake. That is likely true for a single SPS coral, and maybe not off much for all sps corals. But what about other users that take up trace elements and no calcium, such as macroalgae, bacteria, or most soft corals? Those may be the main users in many reef aquaria.

The tropic Marin approach is flawed by assuming all tanks use about the same amount of trace elements per day per gallon,

I’m guessing that the TM approach can be designed to match a typical aquarium, and never suggests no dosing like Red Sea might. The Red Sea approach would seriously fail in an all soft coral tank with little coralline and lots of macroalgae where little or no trace element mix is added..

So it basically sounds like a double edge sword based on the individual tank consumption of trace elements on which product to use. Either ml/day/gal or by calcium uptake. So neither are considered to be better than the other for a mixed reef with lots of coralline algae because of the flawed assumptions the way I am understanding it? This explains why some reefer's dose individual elements based on a ICP test. Unfortunately I do not fully trust the tests I used which I thought was one of the better companies and would hate to overdose elements based on bad data.
Thanks Randy for this examination. Always great information.

 

[Batt]

Water changes really do nothing for trace elements. Unless you are doing 50% water changes then yes. The rule of thumb is look at your corals. Are thay happy ? . If so then don't do anything. Your coral will tell you when it time to move on to dose things until then do nothing if all looks good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Water changes really do nothing for trace elements. Unless you are doing 50% water changes then yes.

It's clearly not true that it does literally nothing.

I agree that by itself a normal water change schedule cannot maintain the same levels as are in the salt mix, but we have little to no info on whether the amount that is added is sufficient for organism needs for any given element.

IMO, folks ignore the biggest source of trace elements in undosed tanks: foods.

 

[Big E]

There is no way every single tank out there is consuming elements in a perfect ratio. We can’t even measure accurately enough to know that.

I add Tropic Marin A and K to my 2 part at half the recommended dose. I used to be all in on Reef Moonshiners but after 2 years realized it’s nothing more than a giant guessing game with absolutely no clue what each trace element does. Person A will claim element X does this, yet Persons B, C, and D all dose it and don’t see similar results. Then someone asks Randy what does element X actually do and his response is usually, “It has no known role in any biological function.” Or something similar.

I know this isn’t about Reef Moonshiners in any way but just adding my experience with trace elements and why I think mass dosing them likely isn’t yielding any quantifiable results. I quit the RM method a few months back and my tank may actually look better than it ever has. I attribute this to maturation more than anything but can clearly tell my tank doesn’t seem to care I stopped dosing 15 different trace elements. I only added the A and K to my 2 part a few weeks ago and at half dose as mentioned before.

I have watched 3-4 different videos and also read comments over the pat two decades which of these trace element levels matter or proof to what they are actually benefiting. It's always coming from manufacturers/sellers of these products.

In recent videos I've seen Meckly/captiv8, Fauna and Moonshiners and they all have different takes on certain elements and which are important...........lol.

 

[GuppyHJD]

I have watched 3-4 different videos and also read comments over the pat two decades which of these trace element levels matter or proof to what they are actually benefiting. It's always coming from manufacturers/sellers of these products.

In recent videos I've seen Meckly/captiv8, Fauna and Moonshiners and they all have different takes on certain elements and which are important...........lol.

Looking at the Captiv8 and Moonshiners programs, lots of differences.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

There is no way every single tank out there is consuming elements in a perfect ratio. We can’t even measure accurately enough to know that.

I add Tropic Marin A and K to my 2 part at half the recommended dose. I used to be all in on Reef Moonshiners but after 2 years realized it’s nothing more than a giant guessing game with absolutely no clue what each trace element does. Person A will claim element X does this, yet Persons B, C, and D all dose it and don’t see similar results. Then someone asks Randy what does element X actually do and his response is usually, “It has no known role in any biological function.” Or something similar.

I know this isn’t about Reef Moonshiners in any way but just adding my experience with trace elements and why I think mass dosing them likely isn’t yielding any quantifiable results. I quit the RM method a few months back and my tank may actually look better than it ever has. I attribute this to maturation more than anything but can clearly tell my tank doesn’t seem to care I stopped dosing 15 different trace elements. I only added the A and K to my 2 part a few weeks ago and at half dose as mentioned before.

I am curious about your half dose level. A half dose of the TM recommendation?

I dose A+ and K- daily, with the amount tied to my CaRx alkalinity additions. I am using the BRS recommended amounts as the basis for my calculations and just want to compare against what others are using. The TM daily recommendation for my tank is 4.5 ml, with a max daily dosage of 9 ml. I dose around 2.2x ml per day depending on growth. So around 1/2 of the TM recommendation. I should add, that I am using the minimum BRS recommendation (80 ml/G) from their balling hybrid system.

 

[rtparty]

I am curious about your half dose level. A half dose of the TM recommendation?

I dose A+ and K- daily, with the amount tied to my CaRx alkalinity additions. I am using the BRS recommended amounts as the basis for my calculations and just want to compare against what others are using. The TM daily recommendation for my tank is 4.5 ml, with a max daily dosage of 9 ml. I dose around 2.2x ml per day depending on growth. So around 1/2 of the TM recommendation. I should add, that I am using the minimum BRS recommendation (80 ml/G) from their balling hybrid system.

In the BRS instructions it gives amounts to add per gallon of 2 part solution depending on stocking levels. I went half of the low demand recipe.

I just got my ICP results back and all are spot on or slightly low so I’ll increase how much I add to my 2 part and retest in 3-4 months

 

[drbark]

Both mL per day per gallon and mL per day per ppm calcium or alk uptake are inherently flawed.

The Red Sea approach is flawed by assuming that calcium uptake is related to trace element uptake. That is likely true for a single SPS coral, and maybe not off much for all sps corals. But what about other users that take up trace elements and no calcium, such as macroalgae, bacteria, or most soft corals? Those may be the main users in many reef aquaria.

The tropic Marin approach is flawed by assuming all tanks use about the same amount of trace elements per day per gallon,

I’m guessing that the TM approach can be designed to match a typical aquarium, and never suggests no dosing like Red Sea might. The Red Sea approach would seriously fail in an all soft coral tank with little coralline and lots of macroalgae where little or no trace element mix is added..

Great explanation Randy. I don't post much here but really appreciate all the info you guys have. I use the Red Sea dosing just to try something different than before. Always curious. I have been doing the dosing with ABCD for a year now with ICP tests every three months. I have a Red Sea 750xxl tank and a mixed reef. I found that dosing ABCD with the relation to Calcium doesn't work. But since Red Sea used that comparison, I continued to use it. It comes to more than 1 ml or dosing to 20 mls of Calcium dosed, with monthly 20% water changes. My house is a pain to do water changes for reasons I won't bore you guys and found that this works the best for me. Again, my system is only 15 months old so things will change over time. I found that doing monthly water changes helps my LPS and SPS corals since I have a couple of large softies in there.

 

[Steve2020]

Great explanation Randy. I don't post much here but really appreciate all the info you guys have. I use the Red Sea dosing just to try something different than before. Always curious. I have been doing the dosing with ABCD for a year now with ICP tests every three months. I have a Red Sea 750xxl tank and a mixed reef. I found that dosing ABCD with the relation to Calcium doesn't work. But since Red Sea used that comparison, I continued to use it. It comes to more than 1 ml or dosing to 20 mls of Calcium dosed, with monthly 20% water changes. My house is a pain to do water changes for reasons I won't bore you guys and found that this works the best for me. Again, my system is only 15 months old so things will change over time. I found that doing monthly water changes helps my LPS and SPS corals since I have a couple of large softies in there.

Curious on what 2 part you are using?

 

[drbark]

Curious on what 2 part you are using?

I use the Red Sea 2 part. It's actually the Alk, Cal, and Mag. Just decided to make it Red Sea for consistency.

 

[Dan_P]

From what I have read, there seems to be many varying opinions on doing water changes or dosing minor/trace elements or doing both. First lets say your nutrients are in an acceptable range without doing any water changes at all. I will use BRS 2 part and Red Sea Colors ABCD during this discussion. Your salt mix mixes at Alk=9.0, Cal=450 and mag at 1500. You are dosing BRS 2 part at 51ml ALK and Cal and Mag at 8.5ml daily to maintain your Alk, Cal and Mag. If dosing Red Sea Colors ABCD the instructions for BRS 2 part would be 1ml of ABCD each daily. When people recommend a 10% water change lets say every 2 weeks without dosing ABCD that would equate to a loss of 14ml of trace elements that is in the ABCD. I am not sure what the individual loss of each trace element would be but seems like a lot. Does the 10% water change completely replenish the trace elements? From what I have read in some other threads some say NO. Would they end up becoming really low over a long period of time? Using the above example if you do both water changes and dose ABCD I would think now elements would be high over time. If the instructions for ABCD are correct and the elements in ABCD are correct as advertised then why would people do both water change and dose ABCD? So I am probably off base here but it seems to me if ABCD does what is advertised, and I believe it does based on what I have noticed in my corals, why do water changes at all? If only doing water changes, are you completely replenishing trace element that is equivalent to ABCD?
Last question is why would you do both?

The “water change fixes trace element concentration” is wishful thinking. “Regular dosing of a trace element product“ is similarly wishful thinking. If you can’t or won’t measure trace elements, wishful thinking might keep things right for you.

 

[drbark]

The “water change fixes trace element concentration” is wishful thinking. “Regular dosing of a trace element product“ is similarly wishful thinking. If you can’t or won’t measure trace elements, wishful thinking might keep things right for you.

I have been running ICP tests for the past three weeks for once a week to make sure I'm dialed in. To my luck and suprise I'm pretty close. I just went with 75% of the dosing of the recommended amount. I do have a Red Sea Iron test kit so I had a somewhat good idea. That one is cosumed more due to my chaeto fuge. I bumped it up and confirmed it with the ICP results. I might just run another ICP next week and if everything is cool, then run it every two weeks to make sure. Let me know if this is too extreme.

 

[Dan_P]

I have been running ICP tests for the past three weeks for once a week to make sure I'm dialed in. To my luck and suprise I'm pretty close. I just went with 75% of the dosing of the recommended amount. I do have a Red Sea Iron test kit so I had a somewhat good idea. That one is cosumed more due to my chaeto fuge. I bumped it up and confirmed it with the ICP results. I might just run another ICP next week and if everything is cool, then run it every two weeks to make sure. Let me know if this is too extreme.

WOW! Doing it the right way is never an ”extreme”

 

[Reefahholic]

I have found the water changes provide complete trace element stability (backed up with ICP results)

Can we see those ICP results.? What is the water volume and biomass of your system and what percentage/frequency of water changes were you doing?

@rtparty