Water changes vs dosing trace elements

[MenciTooLoko]

I’m definitely far from having to worry about trace elements since I do 10% water changes every week and only have a handful of frags. But out of curiosity, when or if I need to worry about them would it be sufficient to just do 20% water changes every other day for a good 2 weeks whenever replenishment is necessary? I’d like to keep my tank simple and not have to worry about dosing trace elements in the future.

 

[BryanM]

I’m definitely far from having to worry about trace elements since I do 10% water changes every week and only have a handful of frags. But out of curiosity, when or if I need to worry about them would it be sufficient to just do 20% water changes every other day for a good 2 weeks whenever replenishment is necessary? I’d like to keep my tank simple and not have to worry about dosing trace elements in the future.

tank size? Stocking load now? Future plans.

I'm in the 200-210 gallon range, and the idea of doing 10-20% water changes twice a month was a non started, so I went immediately down dosing.

Now I'm having to change that up, I'm still successful, but calc is creeping up, and I need to adjust.

It is all quite personal choices here, there's tons of info on both sides.

 

[dwest]

I’m definitely far from having to worry about trace elements since I do 10% water changes every week and only have a handful of frags. But out of curiosity, when or if I need to worry about them would it be sufficient to just do 20% water changes every other day for a good 2 weeks whenever replenishment is necessary? I’d like to keep my tank simple and not have to worry about dosing trace elements in the future.

If you are truly talking trace elements, 10% weekly water changes are sufficient IMO. If you talking about major elements (Ca, Mg, carbonates, etc) then you'll likely have to dose eventually.

 

[Dan_P]

I’m definitely far from having to worry about trace elements since I do 10% water changes every week and only have a handful of frags. But out of curiosity, when or if I need to worry about them would it be sufficient to just do 20% water changes every other day for a good 2 weeks whenever replenishment is necessary? I’d like to keep my tank simple and not have to worry about dosing trace elements in the future.

The difficulty in answering this question is you don’t know the rate of trace element depletion. If you don’t know this there is no answer to your question. Also, each trace element depletes at a different rate by biotic and abiotic processes and the effect of each trace element concentration on each species is not known.

Measure and dose or fall back on myth and belief and perform water changes. Chances are you have a similar success rate.

 

[Eye H8 Empty V]

I really like dosing reef moonshiners and vinegar. It’s work in the beginning but after you get it dialed in, you’re pretty much making corrections monthly. It’ll do all of your major and minor trace elements along with coral supplements. They have their own ICP test and deliver results quickly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m definitely far from having to worry about trace elements since I do 10% water changes every week and only have a handful of frags. But out of curiosity, when or if I need to worry about them would it be sufficient to just do 20% water changes every other day for a good 2 weeks whenever replenishment is necessary? I’d like to keep my tank simple and not have to worry about dosing trace elements in the future.

I actually am not convinced water changes are that important for many trace elements, especially rapidly depleting ones such as iron and manganese, and water changes cannot ever hope to maintain the levels of trace elements in the salt mix. Its a mathematical impossibility unless you change 100% each day.

Water changes might be "enough", but folks making that claim ignore the fact that foods bring in large amounts of trace elements, and may be the more important factor.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I've always been surprised how so many reefers say that water changes are enough for trace element replenishment. Maybe that could be true for fish only, or maybe softies and LPS, (because maybe they don't need them?), but I'm convinced that for SPS (which is all I've had for many years) water changes won't suffice. As Randy alluded to, if you perform a 10% water change, you are only replacing the lost trace elements in 10% of the water.

I have a fairly elaborate system for adding trace elements every day, and I tweak the amounts every few months with ICP. If I didn't supplement them, my levels would drop to dangerously low levels (for SPS).

In recent years, I stopped water changes and just depended on ICP and supplementation but recently, with the introduction of the Oceamo Organo-MS test, I found that I had a very high level of plasticizers. This reminded me that the reason for water changes is not only to replenish trace elements but also to get rid of harmful compounds that accumulate. Some of these compounds can be tested for, but who knows how many others cannot be.
(I will soon post a thread on my "plasticizers experience," what I think might be the culprit, and what I am doing about it).

 

[vabben]

I do both....Run Moonshiners but also do monthly water changes.

 

[dwest]

1% daily AWC
2 part
Kalk
Fish food

I’m not claiming perfection but I also don’t think I need to add any trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1% daily AWC
2 part
Kalk
Fish food

I’m not claiming perfection but I also don’t think I need to add any trace elements.

I see the clowns still like the elegance. :)

 

[dwest]

I think of the elegance as an anemone that can’t move

 

[cromburger]

I've always been surprised how so many reefers say that water changes are enough for trace element replenishment. Maybe that could be true for fish only, or maybe softies and LPS, (because maybe they don't need them?), but I'm convinced that for SPS (which is all I've had for many years) water changes won't suffice. As Randy alluded to, if you perform a 10% water change, you are only replacing the lost trace elements in 10% of the water.

I have a fairly elaborate system for adding trace elements every day, and I tweak the amounts every few months with ICP. If I didn't supplement them, my levels would drop to dangerously low levels (for SPS).

In recent years, I stopped water changes and just depended on ICP and supplementation but recently, with the introduction of the Oceamo Organo-MS test, I found that I had a very high level of plasticizers. This reminded me that the reason for water changes is not only to replenish trace elements but also to get rid of harmful compounds that accumulate. Some of these compounds can be tested for, but who knows how many others cannot be.
(I will soon post a thread on my "plasticizers experience," what I think might be the culprit, and what I am doing about it).

What are you dosing to replenish? Is it each individual element based on testing or do you have a basic trace element solution?

 

[Dr. Jim]

What are you dosing to replenish? Is it each individual element based on testing or do you have a basic trace element solution?

I use Tropic Marin A & K at about 1/4th their recommended dosage and add various amounts of all the elements to them based on years of ICP testing and tweaking. I generally use ATI products and ESV Transition Elements and sometimes Triton and Korallen-Zucht. I find I need more Mn, Fl and Ba compared to the other elements, with Sr, K and Iodine being the next most. I mix the negatively charged elements with the T.M. A- and the positively charged elements with the T.M. K+ and dose them separately 3 times a day during the first 3 hours of the photoperiod using a GHL doser.

 

[cromburger]

What are you dosing to replenish? Is it each individual element based on testing or do you have a basic trace element solution?

I use Tropic Marin A & K at about 1/4th their recommended dosage and add various amounts of all the elements to them based on years of ICP testing and tweaking. I generally use ATI products and ESV Transition Elements and sometimes Triton and Korallen-Zucht. I find I need more Mn, Fl and Ba compared to the other elements, with Sr, K and Iodine being the next most. I mix the negatively charged elements with the T.M. A- and the positively charged elements with the T.M. K+ and dose them separately 3 times a day during the first 3 hours of the photoperiod using a GHL doser.

Wow thanks for that. Your regiment just opened a whole new thought process into how i am going to study and relearn how to dose.

 

[GuppyHJD]

I actually am not convinced water changes are that important for many trace elements, especially rapidly depleting ones such as iron and manganese, and water changes cannot ever hope to maintain the levels of trace elements in the salt mix. Its a mathematical impossibility unless you change 100% each day.

Water changes might be "enough", but folks making that claim ignore the fact that foods bring in large amounts of trace elements, and may be the more important factor.

Do you have a food recommendation to contribute to the trace chemicals needed in a predictable way?

 

[JayM]

Not trying to be a smart Alec, though it’s going to sound that way.

Water changes will suffice - until they don’t.

If you’re going to keep any sort of stony coral, you’re going to need to supplement something at some point if you want them to thrive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you have a food recommendation to contribute to the trace chemicals needed in a predictable way?

No. It’s a very complicated question. There is no doubt that many foods have a large amount of trace elements in them. Much more than water changes if both are used at the levels typically employed by reefers. I did a reef chemistry question of the day looking at one where there is readily available data: iron.

The complication is that we do not know exactly where the trace elements in foods ultimately end up. If in organisms, are they going into all the organisms we care about? Is some ending up sediment, and so not bioavailable? If so, which elements suffer that loss, and to what extent?

Consequently, I cannot give much useful advice except to note that it may be more significant to many organisms that what is added by water change.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Like you, I’ve tried to keep my reef (mixed with SPS, LPS, and softies) simple in terms of additives and maintenance . I use no trace element additives. I do 20% water change every 4-6 weeks. I do use a calcium reactor and high dose 2 part Ca/alk (ESV). I feed heavily and varied (mysis/brine shrimp/plankton, frozen herbivore mix, nori, herbivore pellets , flake). After 6 years growth is still amazing ESPECIALLY SPS.
I’ll admit I cannot keep clams. Seriatopora and Stylophora dominated the early years but died out as the Acropra shaded them out. So whether these issues are due to a lack of trace elements I leave for others to speculate. I’ve never done and never will do ICP testing.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Like you, I’ve tried to keep my reef (mixed with SPS, LPS, and softies) simple in terms of additives and maintenance . I use no trace element additives. I do 20% water change every 4-6 weeks. I do use a calcium reactor and high dose 2 part Ca/alk (ESV). I feed heavily and varied (mysis/brine shrimp/plankton, frozen herbivore mix, nori, herbivore pellets , flake). After 6 years growth is still amazing ESPECIALLY SPS.
I’ll admit I cannot keep clams. Seriatopora and Stylophora dominated the early years but died out as the Acropra shaded them out. So whether these issues are due to a lack of trace elements I leave for others to speculate. I’ve never done and never will do ICP testing.

I forgot to mention that I do NOT use RO/DI water. I mention this only as it may be a source of trace elements.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I forgot to mention that I do NOT use RO/DI water. I mention this only as it may be a source of trace elements.

At first, I was surprised that you have such a beautiful tank without adding trace elements. But using non-RODI water would explain that! But then, I was even more surprised that you have such a beautiful tank using non-RODI water! Maybe we RODI people have been doing it all wrong!