water levels

[melonheadorion]

im running into issues with my water levels. my tank drain (which is through a hob overflow) doesnt match what my return does. i have it set so that i can alter drain from the tank and my return can be changed as well (my return is a jebao). i try to get it as close as possible, but i have yet to find a setting between the drain and the return that keeps everything even. then there is also the obvious water evap that comes in too. in the end, the tank and sump return or drain water at different rates, and i havent been able to get a setup that i can depend on, for the purpose of a proper ATO, or perhaps im doing it wrong.
so, i guess my question/hope is that someone can maybe give me a bit of advice on a way to combat it.

obviously, any water exposed to air is going to evaporate. this will include both the tank and the sump. so, is it normal to have to add water to both? my sump tends to lose more water than the tank, so obviously i would have to refill there, but i guess, should i add a cheap ATO for the tank as well?

heck, if you know a way to resolve this issue in another way, im open for that too. at some point, vacation would be nice, and so that i dont have to worry about water levels being crazy while im out for an extended period

 

[blaxsun]

Do you have a flow valve on your main overflow pipe?

 

[melonheadorion]

Do you have a flow valve on your main overflow pipe?

i do. thats how i try to get the two to match, but the return is either a bit more or less than what i can dial the drain to, it seems. it seems that even if i get them close enough, eventually the tank doesnt have enough water to keep it at that rate. for example, a week or so go by, and the tank level seems to be lower, thereforre throwing off the balance

 

[blaxsun]

On mine, I opened up my valve all the way, set the desired pump speed and then slowly closed the overflow valve until the water in the overflow was at the edge of my emergency overflow pipe.

 

[Dburr1014]

Shouldn't need a valve on a single drain.
In fact it could cause issues.
Got any pics?

 

[melonheadorion]

Shouldn't need a valve on a single drain.
In fact it could cause issues.
Got any pics?

correct, but if its full open and the amount in which it drains is somewhere in between a level in which the return pump can return it, whether its full open or not, still wouldnt matter. if its full open, and a settting too high returns too much water, and one setting lower doesnt return enough, then im still in the same boat

also, the issue isnt so much matching the levels, because eventually i can get them to stay the same, but evaporation from the tank does not get replenished during the water cycle. there would have to be a higher return of water to make up for what evaps from the tank

also, its a siphon type of overflow, and it does not have an emergency drain, so if the return pump is just a bit higher than the drain, it will eventually overflow.

 

[Dburr1014]

correct, but if its full open and the amount in which it drains is somewhere in between a level in which the return pump can return it, whether its full open or not, still wouldnt matter. if its full open, and a settting too high returns too much water, and one setting lower doesnt return enough, then im still in the same boat

also, the issue isnt so much matching the levels, because eventually i can get them to stay the same, but evaporation from the tank does not get replenished during the water cycle. there would have to be a higher return of water to make up for what evaps from the tank

also, its a siphon type of overflow, and it does not have an emergency drain, so if the return pump is just a bit higher than the drain, it will eventually overflow.

As in your last paragraph, is the reason why I would not put any type of valve on the line. Or at least, Keep It Wide Open and never try to match the pump. All you need is something going down the line and restricting the flow and you will flood.
Pictures would tell a thousand words. The drain should be automatically starting like a durso. Unless he's got the type that needs small pump to suck the air out of a u pipe. Again A Picture Tells a thousand words.
Edit: I cannot understand why vaporation happens in the tank and in the sump. That just doesn't happen in a drain that has been set up correctly.

 

[melonheadorion]

As in your last paragraph, is the reason why I would not put any type of valve on the line. Or at least, Keep It Wide Open and never try to match the pump. All you need is something going down the line and restricting the flow and you will flood.
Pictures would tell a thousand words. The drain should be automatically starting like a durso. Unless he's got the type that needs small pump to suck the air out of a u pipe. Again A Picture Tells a thousand words.
Edit: I cannot understand why vaporation happens in the tank and in the sump. That just doesn't happen in a drain that has been set up correctly.

pictures are in the build thread.
its a siphon flow, so you always have to have some type of pump to suck air out, but as long as the siphon doesnt break, you dont. but this is not part of the issue. ive never had the siphon break, nor do i expect it to anytime soon after having it running for many months. the only way that it will flood is if the overlow were to get too much water in it, but ive got it setup where it would be impossible to get that much water into it, for it to overflow. ive designed all of this around the redundancy of safeguarding against flood. for a pump or drain malfunction

i have this setup so that my sump will never overflow, nor will it overfill the tank if the siphon were to break. so, even if i were to shut off the drain completely, i would still be left with enough room for another 5 gallons of water roughly.

for your edit...water, regardless of where it is, evaporates. thats nature. since there is water in the tank, it will always evaporate from there. a flowing river has evaporation, why wouldnt a tank full of water.

if i dont have a valve in the line, i suffer from the problem i already have. i will have all flow, no brakes with water leaving the tank, but be stuck at either too much returning to the tank, or not enough. its the sole purpose as to why i have that valve to begin with. i knew from the start that if you want to keep things even, because a mechanical pump will likely not match exactly the same flow as the drain, there will have to be a way to change the rate in which it drains, otherwise, you run the pump out of water quickly or you drain it faster than your pump can replace in the tank, thus increasing the possiblity of a siphon break. i also have it setup like this for purposes of complete silence. this setup, other than the hum of fans, is silent. this is no splashing from the drain, overflow, or anywhere in between.

 

[melonheadorion]

also, i have an apex coming, so for even further redundancy, i have a plan to setup an overflow safety in teh tank, sump, or overflow anyway. so the worry of overflow, although i undersstand the worry of it, overlook it for now, because its not a concern currently

 

[Dburr1014]

pictures are in the build thread.
its a siphon flow, so you always have to have some type of pump to suck air out, but as long as the siphon doesnt break, you dont. but this is not part of the issue. ive never had the siphon break, nor do i expect it to anytime soon after having it running for many months. the only way that it will flood is if the overlow were to get too much water in it, but ive got it setup where it would be impossible to get that much water into it, for it to overflow. ive designed all of this around the redundancy of safeguarding against flood. for a pump or drain malfunction

i have this setup so that my sump will never overflow, nor will it overfill the tank if the siphon were to break. so, even if i were to shut off the drain completely, i would still be left with enough room for another 5 gallons of water roughly.

for your edit...water, regardless of where it is, evaporates. thats nature. since there is water in the tank, it will always evaporate from there. a flowing river has evaporation, why wouldnt a tank full of water.

if i dont have a valve in the line, i suffer from the problem i already have. i will have all flow, no brakes with water leaving the tank, but be stuck at either too much returning to the tank, or not enough. its the sole purpose as to why i have that valve to begin with. i knew from the start that if you want to keep things even, because a mechanical pump will likely not match exactly the same flow as the drain, there will have to be a way to change the rate in which it drains, otherwise, you run the pump out of water quickly or you drain it faster than your pump can replace in the tank, thus increasing the possiblity of a siphon break. i also have it setup like this for purposes of complete silence. this setup, other than the hum of fans, is silent. this is no splashing from the drain, overflow, or anywhere in between.

Of coarse evap happens everywhere. What I meant is the only place water should get low is where your pump sits. Water will always go to the tank if the pump is on and where the pump is the water will get low because of evaporation.
It should not/could not happen if its set up correctly. The wier sets up the height in the tank. That should not change unless you change it.

 

[ying yang]

Have pump on setting where doesn't quite give enough to match the drain speed then close valve on drain to slow it then can match would of thought .

As for you get evaporation on dt and in sump,this confuses me,as should just evaporate from your sump ( in sump section where return pump sits) this section where we usually put ato which helps keep salinity stable and doesnt let to much water evaporate so return pump runs dry.

But never used your kind of overflow so will defer to others who have.
Little bit of advice though is post pictures of your hob overflow/ pipes/ sump so others don't have to go trapesing / reading your build thread to help you is what I would be doing.
Good luck ^_^

Edit: also read often if close valves on drains fully and turn on pump then slowly open valve to get correct setting works best ,rather than starting with valve fully open

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Sounds like you need an ATO

 

[melonheadorion]

But never used your kind of overflow so will defer to others who have.
Little bit of advice though is post pictures of your hob overflow/ pipes/ sump so others don't have to go trapesing / reading your build thread to help you is what I would je doing.
Good luck ^_^

as mentioned. build thread

 

[Dburr1014]

This setup should go fast or slow depending on your pump speed. I don't know what the rating is and I assume you did do your homework. The tank water level should not be changing.

 

[melonheadorion]

Sounds like you need an ATO

i did mention this in the OP.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

as mentioned. build thread

As ying mentioned, make it easier for us to help you...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

i did mention this in the OP.

So, once you have a mechanism for maintaining your desired water level, report back to us. Not sure what other advice you're looking for if you already know what the problem is..?

 

[melonheadorion]

So, once you have a mechanism for maintaining your desired water level, report back to us. Not sure what other advice you're looking for if you already know what the problem is..?

just never mind. doesnt seem you read the OP, and im not going to try to explain it again.

 

[Dburr1014]

just never mind. doesnt seem you read the OP, and im not going to try to explain it again.

I'm sorry we don't understand your predicament.
Happy reefing!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

just never mind. doesnt seem you read the OP, and im not going to try to explain it again.

Nice way to treat people trying to help you.