We finally tested the Black Box LED... Compare notes? | BRStv Investigates

[Big E]

Im going by your words of "personal experience" meaning you actually had data from your own experiment. Thanks for the link.

I have 10 years of experience running setups open air and in ATI fixtures for Acropora dominant systems. I believe I have a pretty good handle on loss of spectrum over time with what I use. I've done numerous par tests over my own system.

I think it's working fairly well......the corals color and growth can tell a lot more than raw par numbers and spectral analysis. Taking pictures helps a lot as well.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/big-e-rimless-80g-sps.206607/

Look, all I'm saying is you have to be aware of what kind of results you're looking for and make sure when you're testing something you run it the way it was designed and recommended by the manufacturer.

Seriously, read that thread link I posted above on ATI fixtures. There's also a ton of factual data out there if someone cares to search for it.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread..........if you want more questions on how I do things I'm happy to answer questions on my tank thread.

 

[kingkenobi]

We're at it again!

There were so many requests to test the Black Box LED that Ryan finally had to bring one in and test it. We can't wait to see where this thread goes, so by all means share your thoughts and opinions and experiences with these lights!

To be honest budget reefers 1. want to grow coral. 2. want equipment to cost as little as possible. 3. want a decent looking tank when all is said and done. with that being said safety isnt always a concern (it should be) but most budget reefers look at the all powerful dollar first and foremost. i like the fact that alot of brs videos give par measurements, hot spots, and other key features on lighting and other equipment but rarely does anyone speak in lamen terms ( this light will grow sps lps and softies) the lighting companies them selves are vague on this as well most include a par map but doesnt show distance from water surface or tank depth. i really enjoy how you implement most of these in your videos. I think the biggest problem and why doing a black box is a good thing is because aquarium led lighting isnt a new concept anymore. there isnt a debate that led's can or cant grow coral. The reason why so many people go towards the black box is because of the industry. we hear all the time this is the latest greatest light it will have your corals growing like crazy. then the next year this light is 10x better. then the next year this light is 100x times better it will play music to your fish blah blah blah... we never hear from the industry hey we are trying to make a more cost effective lighting to better the hobby and make your aquarium look awesome at the same time. i dont wanna peronally attack any lighting companies but i do like to call them out on bs. the bs is that over the last 15 ear led's have been used if not longer in our hobby from reefs to planted aquariums to horticulture. becausethe technology has been proven verified and produced in mass in all cases and point the price of such lights should go down but oh no cant do that the industry views it as a luxury and that if you want that luxury your gonna pay. I have watched most reef lighting companies over the last 7 years the technology hasnt changed much other than different doodads that change functionality like thunderstorms and cloud cover . but compair the price of lights 7 years ago to the ones now and the price is pretty much the same if not more. when leds became the big trend even t5s and MH's didnt even go down in price. even though the tech is pretty much capped in those fields that as good as the lights are gonna get they still charge 100$+ for a t5 light. thats where the black box shows up people see wow an 68$ light that can grow my sps and i wont have to spend 20$ every 9 months on t5 or MH bulbs anymore sign me ups or wow your saying that this 69$ black box will grow my coral and i wont have to by a 500-1000$ led light and spend 200$ for a mounting option sign me up and last but not least oh wow i can get 3 of these for less than 200$ to cover my 6 ft tank instead of spending 1500$-3000$ for 3(insert brand here) lights for my 6ft tank im on board. I guess to make is short and sweet if your just skimming thru this. The point is the industry has an elitist mentality that if you want the best your going to pay $$$ the problem is that without the bells and whistles they are pretty close to the same thing as the black box a group of light emitting diodes that arent too expensive to make the most costly thing in them would be the led controller. so all the industry guys out there if your reading this the reason why brs got so many request to do a black box light is because you want to charge $$$ for a black box with bells and whistles. they both will preform the same function growing corals.

 

[oreo54]

For anyone interested here is an excellent thread on how important active cooling is versus having none.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1641235

There is a minor catch to this:

Don't get them too cool..

 

[rtparty]

I think some people don't fully understand how T5s are designed and actually cooled.

The splash shield has nothing do with the active cooling of the bulbs. It is meant to protect from, wait for it, splashes.

An ATI unit is designed to pull fresh air in the top, blow that air over the ballasts and then that air travels out holes above each bulb and cools the cold spot/label end of the bulb. This is the ONLY part that actually needs to be cooled as it dictates the internal pressure of the bulb. Too much pressure from heat and PAR drops. Too little pressure from over cooling and PAR drops. Open air in a cool environment can and will work just as well as fans pushing air over the cold spot of the bulbs. Ambient temperature plays a much larger role than whether fans and a splash shield are used.

Setting up an ATI to be used as intended will tell you one thing only: how those exact bulbs reacted when used in that exact fixture. That's it. It will give some insight on how T5s lose PAR and spectrum overtime but most of that info can not and should not be taken as the end all, be all.

This test would need a myriad of stations all setup differently to really test what's happening for the majority of reefers. Like Ryan said, 90% of people don't install or run T5s properly anyway. Some use workhorse ballasts. Most don't cool them at all. Most don't even know that the label end is the cold spot of the bulb and when placed in an ATI fixture, that cold spot needs to be under the cooling holes. The vast majority of people have no idea what fan speed to run their fans on an ATI either. I have spent years testing, gathering data and experimenting with hundreds of reefers on RC about this very topic. Our results were very different than BRS' results from their ATI Sunpower video. Again, that is years and years worth of data in a plethora of situations.

So Ryan's current test will do just fine and they did the smart thing by cooling the ballasts. Under cooled ballasts have been a major problem for ATI for years. They die in about 12-14 months. Right after warranty has run out.

 

[Tdk]

I wish they would do one with sb reef lights, im curious to see how they would perform against these 2 lights given the fact that they are supposed to be an upgrade from the traditional black box as far as spectrum and power

 

[dz6t]

Very well said!
T5 actually was not designed with a splash guard with cooling fan in mind. When splash guard is needed for saltwater application, cooling fans is used.

 

[dz6t]

I wish they would do one with sb reef lights, im curious to see how they would perform against these 2 lights given the fact that they are supposed to be an upgrade from the traditional black box as far as spectrum and power

IMO the $130 SB use better material than the $100 Mars etc.
In terms of power, they are the same. SB still claims their basic fixture is 165w, but it actually about 115 to 120w, same as other blackboxes.

 

[Flippers4pups]

This will be my last post to this thread. Please take the time to read it thoroughly and digest its message.


"On the subject perceived risk and known risk. Let me preface this, one fire is one fire too many as anyone would agree, including myself. Risks with any electrical device in home use or business is a risk we all take everyday. We assume that manufactures of electrical devices have done their engineering and design work toeach device to ensure our safety and continue use. With all of this, it is still up to the consumer to use and apply these devices in the way they were intended.

But even with independent laboratory testing, certifications and inspection guidelines to ensure that "safety"during use, there will be failures.

Case in point the "Marineland stealth heater fires". This happened not long ago and the government stepped in and made Marineland recall over one million of these heaters do to the inherent risk they posed. This was a known risk, not perceived.

https://www.aboutlawsuits.com/aquarium-heater-recall-17739/

By the way, if you still have one of these in the recall, throw it away NOW!

This became well known on all the hobby forums, as fellow reefers were posting their personal accounts of these failing and causing damage to their tanks and homes. At one time there could be had a post a day across the forums of one failing. Pictures of melted plastic and even still smoking units popped up on the forums! Burnt tank stands and scorched walls were posted everywhere.

There was and still is undisputed proof that this SPECIFIC manufacturer and SPECIFIC model of heater was at cause and through the forums the word got out to stop using them immediately.

In the case of these Black boxes, Ryan at BRS did not specifically state the manufacturer and model of led light that caught fire. Instead, because of his personal agenda, he used broad sweeping innuendos of all black boxes having this perceived risk.

This was irresponsible to the hobby community and left numerous questions unanswered. This is why I have spoken out so much on this subject. Not defending my decisions on my ownership of these lights.

IF YOU HAVE IN THE PAST HAD A EQUIPMENT FAILURE THAT WAS CATASTROPHIC, CAUSING DAMAGE TO YOUR TANK OR MORE IMPORTANTLY TO YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS, POST IT ON THESE FORUMS!

AS A COMMUNITY SERVICE TO OTHER FELLOW HOBBYISTS!

GET THE WORD OUT! POST PICTURES AND DETAILS FOR EVERYONE TO SEE! I DONT CARE WHAT IT IS OR WHO MADE IT!"

 

[oreo54]

first re: the heaters
"reported that it had received at least 38 reports of fires resulting in property damage."

IF there was one fire odds are there would be no recall..
NOT trying to justify anything in part...just facts and the way the US system works..or doesn't .

No better police than ourselves..

Secondly send any heaters to Marineland. I believe they will still refund or credit a certain $ amount to you (2 yrs ago sent in 2).
In other words still possibly worth a buck or 2...

Actually just consider black boxes as DIY.. Probably a few more standards up from that btw...

IF YOU HAVE IN THE PAST HAD A EQUIPMENT FAILURE THAT WAS CATASTROPHIC, CAUSING DAMAGE TO YOUR TANK OR MORE IMPORTANTLY TO YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS, POST IT ON THESE FORUMS!

YEP...

 

[Ryanbrs]

I can tell you from personal experience that the bulbs won't last as long without being actively cooled, which means with the splash guard on. Essentially the way your doing it, the bulbs are being open air cooled if at all.

I've had more than a few open air ballasts and bulbs(LET kits) with no canopy or fixture enclosure to hold heat........ the bulbs will lose about 4-5 months of holding spectrum versus being cooled in an ATI fixture as it was designed.

Not sure what your goal is on the testing but your data is only as good as your design of experiment (DOA).
If the test isn't set up right the data is flawed.

If you want to test open air fixtures and bulb life you should have used LET fixtures..........if you want to test bulb life in an ATI fixture you need to keep the splash shield on. That is two totally different tests and I assure you the outcomes will be very different.

Anyways, at this point it doesn't matter as you're going to defend how you set up the test as it's already under way and can't be changed.

I'd certainly rather start over than do something that has zero value. Since we can't test every conceivable configuration at once, we have to create some kind of baseline. If the bulbs perform really well in this less than ideal environment, awesome, we can all change them out less frequently and it's fair to assume performance will only get better if we achieve ideal parameters. If the results are rapid spectrum shifts and PAR reductions we will know in just a couple months and I think will absolutely justify an additional test with an ideal cooling solution which will help us all understand the importance of proper cooling on bulb longevity.

In this case we are not testing ATI fixtures we are testing bulbs which can be installed on ATI fixtures , retro kits, closed fixtures like the matrix, open fixtures like the sun blaze and others. I'd understand if someone believed a different testing apparatus was a better option but this seemed like it was in the middle of these various installs with cooled ballasts and largely passively cooled bulbs. I really believe that ATI fixtures set to the proper fan speed represent a small minority of all installs. I am also pretty sure reefers might be surprised by how well an ATI passively cooled solution works at achieving fairly similar results as the perfect fan speed in a ducted solution. Something we will see in detail in next weeks video

Just as a FYI the reason I wanted to do this is because I tested the spectrum on some 18 month old ATI bulbs which have been dimmed the entire time and it was 100% identical to brand new bulbs. We have been told dimming and going past 12 months is going to result in spectrum shifts and in this case, I didn't see any sign of that. I personally want to know so we can get proper advice to the reefers who are asking us. Right now everyone is just sharing manufactures recommendations.

 

[Potatohead]

I don't know why guys make stuff so complicated. If ATI says run the guard, why take it off? Stick a thermometer in the end, set the fan speed so your exhaust air is about 105F and that's it. It's not rocket science.

It will be interesting to see the results of this new test though, no spectrum shift after 18 months has perked my ears for sure.

 

[alton]

For some time people have been asking for BRS to test a Black Box LED. Now the complaint is 20 pages long of why didn't they use a name brand Black box? I think it is up to the different black box companies to do there own testing and post there results/comparisons online? I have used two different brands of Black Boxes, I sold one and kept the other as a back up. My complaint for both was at 8" above the water line a 24" light covered 30". I bought a 24" light and it would not light my 40 breeder from end to end. I do not like seeing a light 18" above my tanks, if I did I would go back to MH. In closing I believe Ryan did a great job of showing the PAR levels and hot spots of the black box, just all other lights that BRS has tested.

 

[Tdk]

For some time people have been asking for BRS to test a Black Box LED. Now the complaint is 20 pages long of why didn't they use a name brand Black box? I think it is up to the different black box companies to do there own testing and post there results/comparisons online? I have used two different brands of Black Boxes, I sold one and kept the other as a back up. My complaint for both was at 8" above the water line a 24" light covered 30". I bought a 24" light and it would not light my 40 breeder from end to end. I do not like seeing a light 18" above my tanks, if I did I would go back to MH. In closing I believe Ryan did a great job of showing the PAR levels and hot spots of the black box, just all other lights that BRS has tested.

I dont think i complained at all, i simply stated that i wish they had done sb reef lights as well to see if their claims were true about a better spectrum. Had nothing to do with a complaint and im happy they did the test for the black box to see the difference.

 

[MorganAtlanta]

IF YOU HAVE IN THE PAST HAD A EQUIPMENT FAILURE THAT WAS CATASTROPHIC, CAUSING DAMAGE TO YOUR TANK OR MORE IMPORTANTLY TO YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS, POST IT ON THESE FORUMS!

AS A COMMUNITY SERVICE TO OTHER FELLOW HOBBYISTS!

GET THE WORD OUT! POST PICTURES AND DETAILS FOR EVERYONE TO SEE! I DONT CARE WHAT IT IS OR WHO MADE IT!"

Bosch dishwasher. Luckily I was home and heard, saw and smelled it before it really took off. Does go to show that UL/CE only gets you so far...

http://turnto10.com/news/local/bosch-dishwashers-recalled-due-to-fire-hazard

 

[dz6t]

I will say drop the UL listing issue all together. It is not a guarantee that a product will not catch on fire if it bares a UL mark. UL test a sample of a product, no like it is a quality control.

 

[dz6t]

Just as a FYI the reason I wanted to do this is because I tested the spectrum on some 18 month old ATI bulbs which have been dimmed the entire time and it was 100% identical to brand new bulbs. We have been told dimming and going past 12 months is going to result in spectrum shifts and in this case, I didn't see any sign of that. I personally want to know so we can get proper advice to the reefers who are asking us. Right now everyone is just sharing manufactures recommendations.

Great work Ryan and BRS!
That is exactly my experience with ATI, Gman, Hamilton and UVL bulbs. I won't say the same for other manufacturers.
I told people in our local community that if they want to toss a 8 month old ATI bulbs, give it to me instead.
A good quality t5 should last for at least 1.5 years. That is what many t5 manufactures said on their products.

 

[APLATN13]

Wait there is a such thing in a name brand BB? lolz

 

[Tdk]

Wait there is a such thing in a name brand BB? lolz

Not so much brand name, just an upgraded unit supposedly

 

[wooglins]

Not so much brand name, just an upgraded unit supposedly

I have owned both a generic blackbox and a SBReefs unit and I can assure you they are not similar except in form factor. The guts are completely different. SBReefs has a specific factory manufacture their unit to spec. You cannot find a SBReefs black box in the same design anywhere except thru SBreef or one of the resellers. All of the other black boxes if you look you can find them on ebay or direct from china in a generic form. For example I ran some Reef Radiance clones that were identical to the Reef Radiance unit but I only paid 110 each for the units (wifi, etc) direct from China. The same pair would have cost me 500 from Reef Radiance.

I looked hard and the SBReefs unit cannot be found direct from the factory because it is built to spec only for SBReef. Similar to other electronics that are built to spec in China. You cannot buy a generic Samsung TV that does not say Samsung but is identical. Similar deal.

 

[Tdk]

I have owned both a generic blackbox and a SBReefs unit and I can assure you they are not similar except in form factor. The guts are completely different. SBReefs has a specific factory manufacture their unit to spec. You cannot find a SBReefs black box in the same design anywhere except thru SBreef or one of the resellers. All of the other black boxes if you look you can find them on ebay or direct from china in a generic form. For example I ran some Reef Radiance clones that were identical to the Reef Radiance unit but I only paid 110 each for the units (wifi, etc) direct from China. The same pair would have cost me 500 from Reef Radiance.

I looked hard and the SBReefs unit cannot be found direct from the factory because it is built to spec only for SBReef. Similar to other electronics that are built to spec in China. You cannot buy a generic Samsung TV that does not say Samsung but is identical. Similar deal.

Yeah i have 2 sb basic lights and i love them i just want to see how they stack up as far as spectrum goes