What are the root causes of Cyano?

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley' started by aeras1131, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Blow off the cyano mats.
    Ignore the n/p. If it loooks dirty it probably is.

    Don’t starve them. Don’t overfeed.
    I like diverse foods.

    Aminos and vitamin c break down easily. Anything that breaks down easily is easy bacteria food.

    Pods would be part of the breakdown and they digest tiny foods. Other organisms absorb nutrients.

    I’ve seen many high nutrient tanks with no algae. (Sometimes mine lol)
    That’s about cuc and the toothbrush IMO. Ime

    As the thread states it’s not n p balance , it’s limitation. Some critters love higher levels of one or the other and will bloom under those conditions and also create micro cilmates to encourage more colonization. (Thus disturbing the mats, cleaning)

    Balance is the balance of organisms to stop one organism dominating the tank and not IMO an N P ratio.

    To keep a healthy Reef you need enough of each to feed all of them.
    I opt for higher numbers , and oddly , don’t have cyano often at all.
     
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  2. bh750

    bh750 Active Member

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    @saltyfilmfolks thanks for taking the time to clarify. So a few more Qs...



    So is that good? We want foods that break down easily to promote other bacteria? Or is it the other way around. And can you gives some examples of good and bad types?


    So Pods = good


    So are you saying part of your maintenance routine is scrubbing the tank/rock with a brush?

    Also, would it be best practice to remove ANY Cyano mats whenever they're spotted? I get that we will always have Cyano and its about keeping it in balance. So is it safe to say if we see a mat then its starting to get out of balance?

    The rest I think I completely get. Again my goal is to try to summarize the great knowledge from this thread.
     
  3. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Vitamin c , easy foods , yes. But in moderation.

    Yep. Pods good. They break down waste. A member of the cuc.

    I use a turkey baster mostly. I hit the toothbrush when it’s needed.

    Yea , I disturb the cyano. And than kinda guage why it’s there.
    Sometimes it’s just we’re the poo lands. Sometimes it’s a weird flow spot. Sometimes it’s a food. Ya kinda have to use eyes and a bit of experience. I can’t feed LRS daily for example not marine snow. No idea why. I get cyano from those.
    The marine snow , I know was a really nice vitamin c kick. So I rotate.

    And please keep in mind. My IMO on balance isn’t number balance. Having none of one is a limitation and cyanos and Dino’s and a number of other ugly stuff thrive in that
    So no, if you see cyano it could mean a lot of different stuff. Including a dirty sump or dead macros in the fuge.
     
  4. Javier Leon

    Javier Leon Member

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    I got a RedSea Max S-650 LED that comes with 4 rear pumps and the regular return pump and I added two Neptune waves and another no brand pump very close to the bottom and still have a little cyano on the sand in both corners and I have a lot of water movement I think with all this pumps. Good article but what should I do stirred the sand with the vacuum every time I do a water change?
    Or only in a big water change for instance I did water change today of 25 gallons in my total 175 but I didn’t stirr the sand this time.
     
  5. MiguelCS71

    MiguelCS71 Active Member

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    Yeah, my tank has always had very high nitrates and nutrients, but I have ALOT of flow in my tank so I've never had this problem
     
  6. jason7570

    jason7570 Active Member R2R Supporter

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    Vodka, biopellets, vibrant ( although it does kill algae) ALWYS causes cyano in my tanks. As soon as I take everything out cyano goes away.
     
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  7. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Yep. All three of those have one thing in common too.
     
  8. Fragzilla

    Fragzilla Active Member

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    Cyanobacteria is the most adaptive form of bacteria we will find in out tanks, as soon as any nutrient parameter changes cyano are first to adapt and start to grow.
     
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  9. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I think it’s neat they’re also cyclic.


    Anyone here with a reef tank that has no cyano invasion still has cyano in the tank, unexpressed as a community (ready when variables align)
    Cyano routinely gets into, and out of, our tanks as part of its world traveler trait.

    Requisite hitchhikers can’t claim that. No matter what any human did to nutrients in my tank...boost em, squelch em, imbalance em, care to test for them, invasive red brush algae for example could not come about because it’s dna is not in my system. what would flourish would be cyano, green microdot algae and green hair variants, by-rule associates of live rock.

    When I see a cyano challenge system I don’t see a problem tank, I see booger mats doing what they were designed to do and I begin solicitation for page nine of the sand rinse thread in which no tank continued a cyano challenge after going through the machine :)
     
  10. chefjpaul

    chefjpaul Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018 Partner Member 2019

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    Mats of cyano around 25 ft. In Caribbean.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  11. saltyfilmfolks

    saltyfilmfolks Lights! Camera! Reef! R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Please list your parameters.


    ;Clown
     
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  12. chefjpaul

    chefjpaul Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018 Partner Member 2019

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    I did bring back water, thinking of sending ICP
     
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  13. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Chef

    fav post of this thread, ur pics.


    That shows any way we try to eliminate cyano via an indirect, non grazing action, we're going totally against nature.


    Nature does not dump peroxide into itself to burn out cyano :) so Im def not against cheating, but your pic frames so well why the various response people take to cyano control have so much....variation. including nitrogen and phosphate tweaking, although its a powerful potential control method for large tankers, preferable to meds for sure, its still not how nature balances cyano. it balances cyano by having some, in controllable patches. we're too ocd to accept that lol.

    these groups find what they need, source it, manufacture/convert it in many cases, and to be cyano free is so abnormal

    sitting right there among fine chem balances, nothing wrong with the settings, a little invader allowed to aggregate. so simple!

    can I link those pics into our sand rinse thread its such a neat nature reference. credits included for sure.
     
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  14. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    is that turtle grass around the bommie that's a neat neat reef man
     
  15. chefjpaul

    chefjpaul Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018 Partner Member 2019

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    Of course, we here to learn and share together.
    But-
    Exactly, when I was diving,, and able to get the gopro from my wife, which was rarely, I tried to capture the "nasties" and critters we take for granted.

    Ill post some funky pics in a bit.
    I have sone stringy, sponges and bacteria like pics from about 60-70 feet as well.

    I used to only pics of fish and beauty, but all you guys got me into the ecosystem as whole.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  16. Belgian Anthias

    Belgian Anthias Active Member

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    In tropical oceans most cyano's are Trichodesmium which are non heterocyst forming filamentoues N2 fixing bacteria and they are unique because they fix nitrogen into ammonia in aerobic conditions. They produce oxygen! Nitrogenase is surpressed by oxygen! Other N2 fixing non heterocyst forming cyanobacteria use the dark cycle and fix a limited amount of nitrogen during the night. Most heterocysts forming cyano's prefere fresh and brackish water. An aquarium is not the ocean and in this limited environment which cyano's will be mainly respnsible for fixing nitrogen?
    Limiting nutrients only removes competition and favors diazotroph cyano growth the moment nutrients become available as Trichodesmium growt is normally surpressed by phytoplankton growth in the battle for phosphate and other building materials. When phytoplankton growth is eliminated or limited due to the lack of sufficient nitrogen compounds most phosphate becoming available can be used by N2 fixing cyano's. Also non N2 fixing cyano's may bloom. Keeping on a minimum ( measurable) level of nutrients makes it possible to keep control.
    Controlling phytoplankton growth may not only control cyano's but also the secondary and primary food chain.
    In the early days, marine aquaria where kept containing more than 200 ppm nitrate and an unknown phosphate level. Some aquaria had cyano outbreaks, others did not.
     
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  17. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...-shut-down-my-tank.343703/page-6#post-5013219


    My expectation is that his thread gets worked for ten pages like theory was worked here for ten pages. That much dedication :)


    7 am
    I edited out all my grumpy type just now out of being so proud for the team response. Bigtime step up did occur. Now am hoping Potato/invaded tank owner jumps on board w same gusto for updates etc, these minds want to see their plan in action and so do I
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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  18. Belgian Anthias

    Belgian Anthias Active Member

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    An important consideration I want to add here is that the use of antibiotics in aquaria ( a closed environment) is prohibited by law in Germany. The reason is simple. The cultivation of resisting strains. This includes all products claiming to kill bacteria but do not advertises the composition of the product, as these products may contain antibiotics.
    A commercial product able to do wonders, removing cyano's or algae without effecting other organisms, may be a very valuable product and not patent such a product seems to be unlikely. If patented there is no reason to keep the composition a secret. Or the product contains common natural products not patentable.
    A lot of commercial products not publishing the composition are based on carbohydrates for stimulating competition for nutrients and using them may implement a higher risks as when using the so called "vodka method" ( as the dose is not known) but as the composition of the product is not known these products must be considered to be dangerous for the environment.

    How to battle cyano's?
    http://ilovereefing.de/cyano-bakterien-bekampfen-gastbeitrag/?lang=en
    ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/dok...#hoe_een_cyano-bacterieprobleem_te_bestrijden
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  19. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I wish chemi clean and red slime remover didn't exist for anyone. I'd rather see biological means / agreed don't medicate just fix it the right way (tbd what that way is)
     
  20. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    stopping back here to make a current summary about works on our test thread above as it adds pages


    Water tuners, nitrate and phosphate tuners like what has gone on here for ten pages, hasn't shown any improvement and if improvements aren't made before the keeper shuts down, then all the exchanges in this thread are not applicable for aquaria-though they may apply for oceanic studies.

    Cyano cures absolutely have to be collected here in order to validate claims of etiology

    Rarely are we tasked with tying in a proof to as many pages of theory, but we are now. BA's idea of introducing naturally-competing strains from terrestrial soils is for sure most creative and has my bet for best potential. The owner of the tank had already tried nutrient tuning of the majors for eight pages, so I cannot expect eight more pages of it to produce. But that terrestrial counter seeding, simple and accessible to everyone and most creative IMO so far.




    If that tank isn't cured of cyano, then absolutely nobody gets to state what causes or sustains it, we will await that input with notepads ready from someone who links an actual cure.

    Ps, cyano challenges are on every forum in reefing, anyone of us could be establishing multiple proofs at once, doesn't just have to be this one above.

    I merely picked the longest running, most noncompliant strain I could find to humble this thread back down to earth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
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