What are the root causes of Cyano?

[saltyfilmfolks]

Keep the tank clean - how do we know if the tank is "clean"? Based on keeping measurements of Nitrate and Phosphate below certain levels?

Blow off the cyano mats.
Ignore the n/p. If it loooks dirty it probably is.

Don’t starve them. Don’t overfeed.
I like diverse foods.

Aminos and vitamin c break down easily. Anything that breaks down easily is easy bacteria food.

Pods would be part of the breakdown and they digest tiny foods. Other organisms absorb nutrients.

I’ve seen many high nutrient tanks with no algae. (Sometimes mine lol)
That’s about cuc and the toothbrush IMO. Ime

As the thread states it’s not n p balance , it’s limitation. Some critters love higher levels of one or the other and will bloom under those conditions and also create micro cilmates to encourage more colonization. (Thus disturbing the mats, cleaning)

Balance is the balance of organisms to stop one organism dominating the tank and not IMO an N P ratio.

To keep a healthy Reef you need enough of each to feed all of them.
I opt for higher numbers , and oddly , don’t have cyano often at all.

 

[bh750]

@saltyfilmfolks thanks for taking the time to clarify. So a few more Qs...

Aminos and vitamin c break down easily. Anything that breaks down easily is easy bacteria food.

So is that good? We want foods that break down easily to promote other bacteria? Or is it the other way around. And can you gives some examples of good and bad types?

Pods would be part of the breakdown and they digest tiny foods. Other organisms absorb nutrients.

So Pods = good

That’s about cuc and the toothbrush IMO. Ime

So are you saying part of your maintenance routine is scrubbing the tank/rock with a brush?

Also, would it be best practice to remove ANY Cyano mats whenever they're spotted? I get that we will always have Cyano and its about keeping it in balance. So is it safe to say if we see a mat then its starting to get out of balance?

The rest I think I completely get. Again my goal is to try to summarize the great knowledge from this thread.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@saltyfilmfolks thanks for taking the time to clarify. So a few more Qs...





So is that good? We want foods that break down easily to promote other bacteria? Or is it the other way around. And can you gives some examples of good and bad types?




So Pods = good




So are you saying part of your maintenance routine is scrubbing the tank/rock with a brush?

Also, would it be best practice to remove ANY Cyano mats whenever they're spotted? I get that we will always have Cyano and its about keeping it in balance. So is it safe to say if we see a mat then its starting to get out of balance?

The rest I think I completely get. Again my goal is to try to summarize the great knowledge from this thread.

Vitamin c , easy foods , yes. But in moderation.

Yep. Pods good. They break down waste. A member of the cuc.

I use a turkey baster mostly. I hit the toothbrush when it’s needed.

Yea , I disturb the cyano. And than kinda guage why it’s there.
Sometimes it’s just we’re the poo lands. Sometimes it’s a weird flow spot. Sometimes it’s a food. Ya kinda have to use eyes and a bit of experience. I can’t feed LRS daily for example not marine snow. No idea why. I get cyano from those.
The marine snow , I know was a really nice vitamin c kick. So I rotate.

And please keep in mind. My IMO on balance isn’t number balance. Having none of one is a limitation and cyanos and Dino’s and a number of other ugly stuff thrive in that
So no, if you see cyano it could mean a lot of different stuff. Including a dirty sump or dead macros in the fuge.

 

[Javier Leon]

I got a RedSea Max S-650 LED that comes with 4 rear pumps and the regular return pump and I added two Neptune waves and another no brand pump very close to the bottom and still have a little cyano on the sand in both corners and I have a lot of water movement I think with all this pumps. Good article but what should I do stirred the sand with the vacuum every time I do a water change?
Or only in a big water change for instance I did water change today of 25 gallons in my total 175 but I didn’t stirr the sand this time.

 

[MiguelCS71]

Yeah, my tank has always had very high nitrates and nutrients, but I have ALOT of flow in my tank so I've never had this problem

 

[jason7570]

Vodka, biopellets, vibrant ( although it does kill algae) ALWYS causes cyano in my tanks. As soon as I take everything out cyano goes away.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Vodka, biopellets, vibrant ( although it does kill algae) ALWYS causes cyano in my tanks. As soon as I take everything out cyano goes away.

Yep. All three of those have one thing in common too.

 

[Fragzilla]

Cyanobacteria is the most adaptive form of bacteria we will find in out tanks, as soon as any nutrient parameter changes cyano are first to adapt and start to grow.

 

[brandon429]

I think it’s neat they’re also cyclic.


Anyone here with a reef tank that has no cyano invasion still has cyano in the tank, unexpressed as a community (ready when variables align)
Cyano routinely gets into, and out of, our tanks as part of its world traveler trait.

Requisite hitchhikers can’t claim that. No matter what any human did to nutrients in my tank...boost em, squelch em, imbalance em, care to test for them, invasive red brush algae for example could not come about because it’s dna is not in my system. what would flourish would be cyano, green microdot algae and green hair variants, by-rule associates of live rock.

When I see a cyano challenge system I don’t see a problem tank, I see booger mats doing what they were designed to do and I begin solicitation for page nine of the sand rinse thread in which no tank continued a cyano challenge after going through the machine

 

[chefjpaul]

Mats of cyano around 25 ft. In Caribbean.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Mats of cyano around 25 ft. In Caribbean.

Please list your parameters.


;Clown

 

[chefjpaul]

Please list your parameters.


;Clown

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]
I did bring back water, thinking of sending ICP

 

[brandon429]

Chef

fav post of this thread, ur pics.


That shows any way we try to eliminate cyano via an indirect, non grazing action, we're going totally against nature.


Nature does not dump peroxide into itself to burn out cyano so Im def not against cheating, but your pic frames so well why the various response people take to cyano control have so much....variation. including nitrogen and phosphate tweaking, although its a powerful potential control method for large tankers, preferable to meds for sure, its still not how nature balances cyano. it balances cyano by having some, in controllable patches. we're too ocd to accept that lol.

these groups find what they need, source it, manufacture/convert it in many cases, and to be cyano free is so abnormal

sitting right there among fine chem balances, nothing wrong with the settings, a little invader allowed to aggregate. so simple!

can I link those pics into our sand rinse thread its such a neat nature reference. credits included for sure.

 

[brandon429]

is that turtle grass around the bommie that's a neat neat reef man

 

[chefjpaul]

Chef

fav post of this thread, ur pics.


That shows any way we try to eliminate cyano via an indirect, non grazing action, we're going totally against nature.


Nature does not dump peroxide into itself to burn out cyano so Im def not against cheating, but your pic frames so well why the various response people take to cyano control have so much....variation. including nitrogen and phosphate tweaking, although its a powerful potential control method for large tankers, preferable to meds for sure, its still not how nature balances cyano. it balances cyano by having some, in controllable patches. we're too ocd to accept that lol.

these groups find what they need, source it, manufacture/convert it in many cases, and to be cyano free is so abnormal

sitting right there among fine chem balances, nothing wrong with the settings, a little invader allowed to aggregate. so simple!

can I link those pics into our sand rinse thread its such a neat nature reference. credits included for sure.

Of course, we here to learn and share together.
But-
Exactly, when I was diving,, and able to get the gopro from my wife, which was rarely, I tried to capture the "nasties" and critters we take for granted.

Ill post some funky pics in a bit.
I have sone stringy, sponges and bacteria like pics from about 60-70 feet as well.

I used to only pics of fish and beauty, but all you guys got me into the ecosystem as whole.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

In tropical oceans most cyano's are Trichodesmium which are non heterocyst forming filamentoues N2 fixing bacteria and they are unique because they fix nitrogen into ammonia in aerobic conditions. They produce oxygen! Nitrogenase is surpressed by oxygen! Other N2 fixing non heterocyst forming cyanobacteria use the dark cycle and fix a limited amount of nitrogen during the night. Most heterocysts forming cyano's prefere fresh and brackish water. An aquarium is not the ocean and in this limited environment which cyano's will be mainly respnsible for fixing nitrogen?
Limiting nutrients only removes competition and favors diazotroph cyano growth the moment nutrients become available as Trichodesmium growt is normally surpressed by phytoplankton growth in the battle for phosphate and other building materials. When phytoplankton growth is eliminated or limited due to the lack of sufficient nitrogen compounds most phosphate becoming available can be used by N2 fixing cyano's. Also non N2 fixing cyano's may bloom. Keeping on a minimum ( measurable) level of nutrients makes it possible to keep control.
Controlling phytoplankton growth may not only control cyano's but also the secondary and primary food chain.
In the early days, marine aquaria where kept containing more than 200 ppm nitrate and an unknown phosphate level. Some aquaria had cyano outbreaks, others did not.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...-shut-down-my-tank.343703/page-6#post-5013219


My expectation is that his thread gets worked for ten pages like theory was worked here for ten pages. That much dedication


7 am
I edited out all my grumpy type just now out of being so proud for the team response. Bigtime step up did occur. Now am hoping Potato/invaded tank owner jumps on board w same gusto for updates etc, these minds want to see their plan in action and so do I

 

[Belgian Anthias]

An important consideration I want to add here is that the use of antibiotics in aquaria ( a closed environment) is prohibited by law in Germany. The reason is simple. The cultivation of resisting strains. This includes all products claiming to kill bacteria but do not advertises the composition of the product, as these products may contain antibiotics.
A commercial product able to do wonders, removing cyano's or algae without effecting other organisms, may be a very valuable product and not patent such a product seems to be unlikely. If patented there is no reason to keep the composition a secret. Or the product contains common natural products not patentable.
A lot of commercial products not publishing the composition are based on carbohydrates for stimulating competition for nutrients and using them may implement a higher risks as when using the so called "vodka method" ( as the dose is not known) but as the composition of the product is not known these products must be considered to be dangerous for the environment.

How to battle cyano's?
http://ilovereefing.de/cyano-bakterien-bekampfen-gastbeitrag/?lang=en

 

[brandon429]

I wish chemi clean and red slime remover didn't exist for anyone. I'd rather see biological means / agreed don't medicate just fix it the right way (tbd what that way is)

 

[brandon429]

stopping back here to make a current summary about works on our test thread above as it adds pages


Water tuners, nitrate and phosphate tuners like what has gone on here for ten pages, hasn't shown any improvement and if improvements aren't made before the keeper shuts down, then all the exchanges in this thread are not applicable for aquaria-though they may apply for oceanic studies.

Cyano cures absolutely have to be collected here in order to validate claims of etiology

Rarely are we tasked with tying in a proof to as many pages of theory, but we are now. BA's idea of introducing naturally-competing strains from terrestrial soils is for sure most creative and has my bet for best potential. The owner of the tank had already tried nutrient tuning of the majors for eight pages, so I cannot expect eight more pages of it to produce. But that terrestrial counter seeding, simple and accessible to everyone and most creative IMO so far.




If that tank isn't cured of cyano, then absolutely nobody gets to state what causes or sustains it, we will await that input with notepads ready from someone who links an actual cure.

Ps, cyano challenges are on every forum in reefing, anyone of us could be establishing multiple proofs at once, doesn't just have to be this one above.

I merely picked the longest running, most noncompliant strain I could find to humble this thread back down to earth.