What are the root causes of Cyano?

[MnFish1]

I´m not sure about this because you can always find this type of cyanobacteria in water samples without mats. And as the quote stated - about the role of excretions - its a well-known mechanism among benthic cyanobacteria.

But I will go further with this - I have a friend that´s doing her PhD thesis on cyanobacteria - time for a phone call

Hans-Werner - I do know very well your experiences and the huge impact you have done in the field of having stony corals in aquaria. To paraphrase poor American detective stories - I have figure out your surname
I do not discuss in disrespect - I discuss in order to learn and in order to put in my experiences into the discussion. The good things is that forum like this unite people with different experiences and different specialities and even in this field diversity is important and there can bee perspectives that have been overseen in the past.

As an example - then I first met David back in 2009 he was in the zero stage according how to handle NO3 and PO4. Everything else was ridiculous. However - his experiences during these years have get him to change his mind according to the best husbandry for the aquarias. And they are good - among the best I have seen and the goal for the rebuilding of Sjöfartsmuseet akvariet is humble - to create the best coral aquarium in the world.

After the invention of small blue bottles back in the 90:ties - the zero approach has been dominated for ALL coral husbandry. There has been a backslash to this the last years because it can create instable aquariums. Aquarium is not nature - it is its own ecosystem - with is own solutions.

As an example - we use organic carbon additives - how often do you pull vodka, vinegar or sugar over a natural reef? We use GFO – how often do you see this in nature?
Is it the whole truth that NO3 may not be good for corals – probably for some – but the theses that you linked to conclude that they had not seen any correlation with bad growth caused of NO3 in clams (chapter 5) , hence there are differences between organisms

According to phosphorus concentrations and coral health - IMO - you are totally right in your claims. I have run an aquaria with 1.45 mg/l in PO4 - with good thriving stony corals - I´m notorious for this in Sweden

However - I run my current aquaria with 0.05-0.1 ppm PO4 ande 0.5-10 ppm NO3

Sincerely Lasse

There are also forms of other bacteria that tend to form 'biofilm' and 'slime' - while others of the same species do not (mucoid vs non-mucoid pseudomonas strains for example). Which could explain why some cyanobacteria strains produce mats and others do not

 

[reeferfoxx]

Did someone say "red rum"?



This looks normal, right? Lol

Sorry this is an old photo. I'm just having fun. Great thread to read by the way.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Did someone say "red rum"?



This looks normal, right? Lol

Sorry this is an old photo. I'm just having fun. Great thread to read by the way.

I did finally figure out what happens in the tank that did that.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I did finally figure out what happens in the tank that did that.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I did finally figure out what happens in the tank that did that.

Red Rum.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Red Rum.

;Hilarious

 

[Lasse]

verkar mig - i en annan anteckning sa du högt nitrathämmande cyanobakterier i sjöar ....>?

Snöar det där än?

Jag hoppas verkligen att min engelska är bättre än din Svenska Om inte - då förstår jag varför ni har så svårt att förstå mig


I live on Sweden's west coast. It rarely snows here. And if it does, it will come as horizontal ice We have had snow for 2 days this November - but now its gone, weather just now. around 6 degree C, partly sun and weak wind - but, I´m sure , soon it will be as the most winters in Gothenburg: 0 degree C, windy and incoming horizontal rain/ice/snow Not the beauty of northern Sweden, nor the beauty of southern Spain, just typical Gothenburg winters

i en annan anteckning sa du högt nitrathämmande cyanobakterier i sjöar ....>?

(I en tidigare post sa du att en hög nitrathalt hämmade cyanobakterier i sjöar)

Yes - but it was in the context of that NO3 block the formation of hydrogen sulfide in the anaerobic sediments, hence block the release of phosphorus from molecules there phosphorus was bond to different metal ions (metal phosphates as calcium phosphate, iron phosphate and so on) In the cited case it was cyanobacteria with heterocyst (N fixating genera) that migrate down to the anoxic sediment during nighttime – picking up phosphorus for next day needs. The same I think happen sometimes below the mats and that NO3 in these cases can block the P uptake. This if the cyanobacteria take its P from these metal-P compounds – not if it takes the P they need from organic matter that is anaerobic breakdown below the mats.

It could be different strain – for sure – but I´m not sure on that because I have seen this “lose” bacteria before, during (in the mats) and after the mat phase. I do not believe that the mat is a result of infection – I think they are a result of changing strategies from on of the oldest organism on earth.

To touch the sand bed by my hands – it’s for me mostly a big No-No. But it is not valid when the mats have been formed – they have to be disturbed as much as possible IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reeferfoxx]

@Lasse This year has been a big cycle of different strains of dino for me. Now that dinos have subsided with taking different approaches for different species, the cycle of hair algae has come and gone. However, now I'm getting cyano mats in various areas of the tank. Mats on the sandbed, near acans on the sandbed, and patches on rocks. I believe part of it was the use and saturation of potassium phosphorus. Though, none has been dosed in a couple months or longer. Before disturbing the mats or any other areas of the tank and before feeding fish, I took some parameter tests as follows:

SG - 1.026(Milwaukee)
Alk - 7.8dkh(Salifert)
Ca - 415(Salifert)
Mag - 1390(Salifert)
No3 - 2-5ppm(Salifert)
Po4 - 0.03ppm(Hanna ULR)
pH - 8.2(API HR exp. 2019)

What are the thoughts here? Organic build up? Over feeding? Too much sandbed stirring?

Tank is running filter floss, skimmer, and a small 9w UV for filtration. 30 gallon tank with 8 small fish and a shrimp.
2x Oci. Clowns
3x Blue-green chromis
1x Cherub pygmy
1x Royal Gramma
1x Hi-fin red banded goby
1x Pistol Shrimp(Randalii)

Lighting - modified 165w WIFI black box.

Moon lights - 12hr(ramping)
Blues - 70% peak 7hrs (ramping)
Whites - 17% peak 7hrs(ramping)

Peak Par at water surface 450. Sandbed PAR 130-150.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Honestly - I can´t se the difference between orthophosphate from KH2PO4 and the ones produced by bacteria. Its the same orthophosphate form IMO, and the bacteria produced orthophosphate .
It will be precipitated in the same rate as the ones coming from KH2PO4 if there is metals present. My pH – I run the system for the time being between 8.10 and 8.40 – will precipitate calcium phosphate in some way regardless the source for the orthophosphate IMO. I do not know any other P species (in water) beside orthophosphate that will be taken up by organism using photophsynthesis. Have I missed anything?

This is not correct. Fish excrete phosphorus with faeces while they excrete ammonium through the gills. Faeces will usually contain particulate phosphate and maybe some other phosphates. Bacteria do not produce orthophosphate except for their own takeup. Breakdown of polyphosphate and organic phosphates will be achieved with the enzyme alkaline phosphatase before uptake. Bacteria may form polyphosphates for storage. Besides orthophosphate polyphosphate usually is the main form of phosphates in reef aquaria. When I did a digestion for polyphosphates and organic phosphates I found 0.01 to 0.02 ppm orthophosphate, ca. 0.05 to 0.06 ppm polyphosphate (acid digestion only) and around 0.02 ppm organic phosphate (acid + persulfate digestion). I think the polyphosphates are mainly of bacterial and maybe algal origin, just as the organic phosphates.

The particulate phosphorus from fish faeces will just dissolve to the equlibirum with water and it will dissolve slowly and will form a slowly running phosphate source while KH2 PO4 will come as a massive pulse of dissolved orthophosphate into the water.

Corals and algae also can produce alkaline phosphatase to get orthophosphate from polyphosphates and organic phosphates ready for uptake. Alkaline phosphatase is an enzyme widespread among organisms.

 

[GoVols]

Since I have found a rhythm (method) to keep my phosphates and nitrates in balance
With no more need for carbon dosing / So long to Cyano

Regards, GoVols

 

[GoVols]

I did finally figure out what happens in the tank that did that.

 

[Lasse]

Hi Reeferfoxx

It’s difficult to have any opinion in this case. I have not following your struggle against the “dinos” and the hairy algae but probably – your system is stressed and not in balance.

How sure are you according to your concentrations of PO4 and NO3? Do you have any possibility to check against some other methods? Personally – I have stopped to use Hanna ULR because I got repeating readings that show to much compared with Triton test. However, Hana Low Range (direct in PO4) has shown readings at the same levels as Triton – I use that for the moment. I have some friends that have done the shift to Hanna LR. Me and Saliferts nitrate test has never been compatible. Reason for that can be that I have problems to see just their colour changes.

You have a pistol shrimp and a goby – In that case – it is difficult to have a undisturbed sand bed. I have a DSB in my fuge and I try not to disturb that – but in my display – its like the wandering sand dunes of Skagen (northern Denmark).

I do not believe that your use of phosphate has change so much – for me – phosphate will precipitate regardless of source.

You have cyanobacteria mats on the stones. It means that the probably can get some resources there and its not (IMO) organic matter. I (if it was my aquarium) should probably add KNO3 (try to put in NO3 to a level of 1-2 ppm/day) for 5 days. Measure every day and try to take away as much as possible of the mats every day. After a week I should evaluate the test. I do not want to use the NO3 as a fertilizer – its roll is to change the biochemical processes below the mat (as I outlined before). If I was dosing organic Carbon - I would stop that as long as there are Cynaobacteria mats

Probably you will have other advises – your problem will be to decide which road you should take. When you decide to go one way – keep going that way till it completely clear that it is a dead-end road or – the main road. Take time.

As long as you have Cyanobacteria mats – do not be afraid to disturb the sand there they are – you (IMO) must do that in order to have a chance to defeat them (again IMO)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This is not correct. Fish excrete phosphorus with faeces while they excrete ammonium through the gills. Faeces will usually contain particulate phosphate and maybe some other phosphates. Bacteria do not produce orthophosphate except for their own takeup. Breakdown of polyphosphate and organic phosphates will be achieved with the enzyme alkaline phosphatase before uptake. Bacteria may form polyphosphates for storage. Besides orthophosphate polyphosphate usually is the main form of phosphates in reef aquaria. When I did a digestion for polyphosphates and organic phosphates I found 0.01 to 0.02 ppm orthophosphate, ca. 0.05 to 0.06 ppm polyphosphate (acid digestion only) and around 0.02 ppm organic phosphate (acid + persulfate digestion). I think the polyphosphates are mainly of bacterial and maybe algal origin, just as the organic phosphates.

The particulate phosphorus from fish faeces will just dissolve to the equlibirum with water and it will dissolve slowly and will form a slowly running phosphate source while KH2 PO4 will come as a massive pulse of dissolved orthophosphate into the water.

Corals and algae also can produce alkaline phosphatase to get orthophosphate from polyphosphates and organic phosphates ready for uptake. Alkaline phosphatase is an enzyme widespread among organisms.

Do you mean that the bacteria breakdown of organic matter do not produce any ortophosphates at all?

Do you mean that particulate phosphorus slowly dissolve and form orthophosphate by itself? Where will the enzyme you state is responsible for the breakdown of polyphosphate and organic phosphate (the forms the term particulate phosphorus include) comes from in that case? They are also the forms that you will need to digest before you can measure them.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reeferfoxx]

Hi Reeferfoxx

It’s difficult to have any opinion in this case. I have not following your struggle against the “dinos” and the hairy algae but probably – your system is stressed and not in balance.

How sure are you according to your concentrations of PO4 and NO3? Do you have any possibility to check against some other methods? Personally – I have stopped to use Hanna ULR because I got repeating readings that show to much compared with Triton test. However, Hana Low Range (direct in PO4) has shown readings at the same levels as Triton – I use that for the moment. I have some friends that have done the shift to Hanna LR. Me and Saliferts nitrate test has never been compatible. Reason for that can be that I have problems to see just their colour changes.

You have a pistol shrimp and a goby – In that case – it is difficult to have a undisturbed sand bed. I have a DSB in my fuge and I try not to disturb that – but in my display – its like the wandering sand dunes of Skagen (northern Denmark).

I do not believe that your use of phosphate has change so much – for me – phosphate will precipitate regardless of source.

You have cyanobacteria mats on the stones. It means that the probably can get some resources there and its not (IMO) organic matter. I (if it was my aquarium) should probably add KNO3 (try to put in NO3 to a level of 1-2 ppm/day) for 5 days. Measure every day and try to take away as much as possible of the mats every day. After a week I should evaluate the test. I do not want to use the NO3 as a fertilizer – its roll is to change the biochemical processes below the mat (as I outlined before). If I was dosing organic Carbon - I would stop that as long as there are Cynaobacteria mats

Probably you will have other advises – your problem will be to decide which road you should take. When you decide to go one way – keep going that way till it completely clear that it is a dead-end road or – the main road. Take time.

As long as you have Cyanobacteria mats – do not be afraid to disturb the sand there they are – you (IMO) must do that in order to have a chance to defeat them (again IMO)

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for your input. I might hold off on kno3 dosing for bit. 4 of those 8 fish were added in the last two weeks. I would like to see their impact on no3. Also, im going try and focus more on micro oragnism additions. I think in that time, it should allow me to see how things go forward. The dinoflagellate history is long and I'm sure it wouldn't completely warrant the now factor. I am welcome to all suggestions and any improvements or downfalls will be recorded during this time. With where my nutrients are today, its the most balanced I've seen in a long time. Though, inaccuracies in test kits could sight otherwise. I'll see how things play out in the next month. Thank you.

 

[Lasse]

@reeferfoxx

Excuse me – I was unclear - with imbalance - I meant an imbalance of the micro fauna - not of nutrients.

However, I´m not a big fan of probiotic if you do not – in one of another way - remove the problematic organism – or change the environment in order to make it more difficult for the organism in question. For me – these is the two most important things to do – after that – time will change the micro fauna. But in some cases – probiotics is able to speed up the processes – maybe it’s a good idea in this case – but IMO you need to disturb the mats all the time. Taking down the biomass and microenvironment of the cyanobacteria and hence make it easier for the competitors you want to introduce.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

Thank you for your input. I might hold off on kno3 dosing for bit. 4 of those 8 fish were added in the last two weeks. I would like to see their impact on no3. Also, im going try and focus more on micro oragnism additions. I think in that time, it should allow me to see how things go forward. The dinoflagellate history is long and I'm sure it wouldn't completely warrant the now factor. I am welcome to all suggestions and any improvements or downfalls will be recorded during this time. With where my nutrients are today, its the most balanced I've seen in a long time. Though, inaccuracies in test kits could sight otherwise. I'll see how things play out in the next month. Thank you.

I agree on Lasse's advices. But want to push some extra for the patience part. Not much happens over night, give it a week or three weeks before you decide if the change/adjustment worked or not. IMO the most important thing is to do things slow and keep to the protocoll for a while. Not try 5 things at the same time.

This is also why I like to not clean the sand or rocks where the cyano is. That is a way to disturb the tank. And the cyanobacteria is an opportunist that do well in changing conditions. But it could also be that I'm lazy Anyway, this has worked well at my work the last years. I have adjusted the NO3 and PO4(slowly) and then just waited. No other changes.
I do clean the sand sometimes from cyano, if I really need the tank to look okey for some event. But if it makes the cyano go away faster I'm not sure. They usually comes back a day or two after cleaning.

/ David

 

[Brew12]

This is not correct. Fish excrete phosphorus with faeces while they excrete ammonium through the gills. Faeces will usually contain particulate phosphate and maybe some other phosphates. Bacteria do not produce orthophosphate except for their own takeup. Breakdown of polyphosphate and organic phosphates will be achieved with the enzyme alkaline phosphatase before uptake. Bacteria may form polyphosphates for storage. Besides orthophosphate polyphosphate usually is the main form of phosphates in reef aquaria. When I did a digestion for polyphosphates and organic phosphates I found 0.01 to 0.02 ppm orthophosphate, ca. 0.05 to 0.06 ppm polyphosphate (acid digestion only) and around 0.02 ppm organic phosphate (acid + persulfate digestion). I think the polyphosphates are mainly of bacterial and maybe algal origin, just as the organic phosphates.

The particulate phosphorus from fish faeces will just dissolve to the equlibirum with water and it will dissolve slowly and will form a slowly running phosphate source while KH2 PO4 will come as a massive pulse of dissolved orthophosphate into the water.

Corals and algae also can produce alkaline phosphatase to get orthophosphate from polyphosphates and organic phosphates ready for uptake. Alkaline phosphatase is an enzyme widespread among organisms.

I've tried doing some studying on this but I'm lost. This has gone way over my head.

I think I understand the difference between orthophosphate, polyphosphate (non organic), and organic phosphates. I'm lost on the significance or application of each in my aquarium. Is this something where you could simplify how each is used (and by what) or the importance of each?

 

[Lasse]

I agree on Lasse's advices. But want to push some extra for the patience part. Not much happens over night, give it a week or three weeks before you decide if the change/adjustment worked or not. IMO the most important thing is to do things slow and keep to the protocoll for a while. Not try 5 things at the same time.

This is also why I like to not clean the sand or rocks where the cyano is. That is a way to disturb the tank. And the cyanobacteria is an opportunist that do well in changing conditions. But it could also be that I'm lazy Anyway, this has worked well at my work the last years. I have adjusted the NO3 and PO4(slowly) and then just waited. No other changes.
I do clean the sand sometimes from cyano, if I really need the tank to look okey for some event. But if it makes the cyano go away faster I'm not sure. They usually comes back a day or two after cleaning.

/ David

You are lazy - I know that - but it is some difference between clean a 2 meter deep aquaria from mats compared with a normal aquaria - I have some understanding for you decision

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Hans-Werner]

I think the ratio between orthophosphate on one side and total phosphate (orthoposphate + polyphosphates + organic phosphates) tells something about how quickly phosphate circles in the system. The higher the proportion of polyphosphates + organic phosphates the faster the phosphates are cycling and the higher the proportion of phosphate that is always cycling in organisms.

When thinking about metabolism and cycling of phosphates you must forget the N cycle. Phosphate and N are completely different. Phosphate gets neither reduced nor oxidized. Phosphate forms bonds with sugars like ribose or desoxyribose to form RNA and DNA. In organisms phosphate is bound to other phosphates with polyphosphate bonds, for example ADP + P --> ATP. This is the way organisms store and transport energy to make use of the stored energy in other reactions. In metabolism there is always some orthophosphate that is split from ATP and not yet bound again to ADP. So it may leak from the cell. That is why there must be some phosphate in the water to compensate for the leakage with new uptake. In contrast there is never much free ammonium in the metabolism. Ammonium at once gets bound to glutamate (amino acid with one amino group) to form glutamin (AA with two amino groups) and from then on it is always bound to organic acids to form amino acids or to enzyms during transfer of the amino group until ammonium is excreted through the gills, after for example the organic acid of the aminoacid has gotten oxidized in catabolism to make use of the stored energy.

Particulate phosphates from the fish feces are for example calciumphosphate from fish bone particles in dry foods or from crustacean exoskeltons in frozen food. Also incompletely digested algae and other feedstuff may form particulate phosphate. Bacteria and microalgae with their phosphate stores are also particulate phosphate.

The predominance of these other forms of phosphate in some systems with low orthophosphate concentrations is an important difference to, and in my eyes a good argument against simple orthophosphate dosage.

I think mat formation in cyanobacteria is a strategy to cover, protect and make use of phosphate stores in substrate and rocks.

 

[Hans-Werner]

My opinion whether to disturb or not to disturb cyanos is: Disturb them but not too frequently. Wait until the cyanos have formed massive mats and there has formed some precipitates and some sediment under the cyano mat. Then remove them completely with the precipitates and sediments formed. If you do not wait until they have formed mats and sediments too much cyanos are still adhered to the substrate and rock and complete (or nearly so) removal is very difficult.

This is the most effective way to disturb and remove cyanos in my experience.