What fish should i get for cycling saltwater

[BroccoliFarmer]

I don't think that the comments are necessarily disagreeing here. Personally, I use bottled bac and am comfortable tossing fish in same day.

I think where this got derailed was where a member specifically stated that ammonia burn is not real, when the OP was asking about the best fish to cycle a tank with. There was initially no talk of bottled bac.

I agree as well. Asking for what fish to cycle has a general implication that they are not using bottle bacteria for which everyone was responding to. Its kinda like pulling up to a gas station and asking what grade of gasoline you need when you are driving a diesel truck. Facts matter.

 

[brandon429]

so his big $300 anemone was burnt on day one along with the fish yet they all acted totally normal, for months, completely delicate reef animals all just fine though they're burned.

that's a groupthink mindset for sure. posters mobbin'


seneye stops all cycle mobs. that's cool. there's literally no cycle detractors in a seneye cycling thread lol they're safe zones.

 

[Manny’s Reef]

Deleting b/c that felt like trolling. I'll behave.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Deleting b/c that felt like trolling. I'll behave.

 

[92Miata]

I don't think that the comments are necessarily disagreeing here. Personally, I use bottled bac and am comfortable tossing fish in same day.

I think where this got derailed was where a member specifically stated that ammonia burn is not real, when the OP was asking about the best fish to cycle a tank with. There was initially no talk of bottled bac.

This is not at all true. Brandon's first post is specific about bottled bacteria.

I agree as well. Asking for what fish to cycle has a general implication that they are not using bottle bacteria for which everyone was responding to. Its kinda like pulling up to a gas station and asking what grade of gasoline you need when you are driving a diesel truck. Facts matter.

There's no such implication, and the analogy isn't relevant. If you aren't sure whether someone is planning on using bottle bac - ASK, don't assume.

People need to start responding to what posts actually say and not their own personal internal narratives.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

This is not at all true. Brandon's first post is specific about bottled bacteria.


There's no such implication, and the analogy isn't relevant. If you aren't sure whether someone is planning on using bottle bac - ASK, don't assume.

People need to start responding to what posts actually say and not their own personal internal narratives.

what was actually said from the OP which everyone was responding too: What affordable best fish should I get for cycling

 

[92Miata]

what was actually said from the OP which everyone was responding too: What affordable best fish should I get for cycling

So you recognize that there's nothing in there about not using bacteria, that you made a big assumption, and went off on a rant based on an incomplete view of the situation?


Stop relying on your own personal narratives and communicate. If you don't know the answer to a question that is critical to the subject - ASK.


All you people are doing is making it absolutely impossible to get an accurate assessment of the situation and give the OP useful advice.

 

[killer2001]

What if its a bad batch of bottled bacteria that got cooked in the heat via transit? Now you've dumped a bottle of bacteria in a tank that's not going to function as intended and the fish and fellow aquarist won't be privy to whats coming unless they are really on top of the ammonia monitoring.

 

[brandon429]

Poking a little fun where I know there's some bees isn't the end of the world
don't take it too harshly.

Our hobby needs to get off the stuck cycle bandwagon because it's a sales ploy with no supporting data. being concerned about ammonia and nitrite in a reef tank cycle is redirecting everyone's eyes away completely from the real cause of loss for us, there was no mention here of disease risks at the start.



this is about better fish retention for the hobby, so we won't get accused of being rich wasters of life with no regard for trending indicators in the hobby as we dig in heels and keep setting up thousands and thousands of stocked tanks destined to get cryptocaryon.

Since our bottled bacteria retailers have indeed developed a strong product, per Dr. Reefs studies and the collective outcome of all fish cycles we can see recently, this ability to instantly carry fish as shown has brought in thousands of new reefers who've never been told where the real loss rates are and what to concern about

therefore, trend watchers say the rules must be updated to match the new flow.

Randy told us sixteen years ago to quit bickering over nitrite, I can't get 80% of people in a cycling thread nowadays to even consider that possibility... the invented fear of nitrite stalling remains strong in the hobby and we track new sales of bottle bac made by that ignorance every day in watch threads.

groupthink is very powerful in reef cycling, it's a cornered sales market is why.

buyers vs sellers cycling science is key/heart of the conflict. sellers of cycling products apply different rules to their tanks than buyers do.

for example, just in case someone else was about to post this:

what form of cycle training on the web allows for a predetermined ready date, before the tank is ever assembled?

what buyers get is a 30 day wait on 1 day-able bottle bac, dosing ammonia over and over and over and waiting. open-ended until api says 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. that's a very long wait for some. they get told that cycles can stall, and a remedy is available that is either more wait or a purchase needed<--this is buyer's training.


what sellers get is the ability to make 300 display reefs start at macna on time with no stalls, for thirty years, nobody is stalling or missing a way to sell things from a real living reef with no expiration date. they aren't dumping bottle after bottle in the tanks.


Those display tanks are controlled/skip cycle setups which land on a predetermined date

that comes from a rules list not published to the web-



some are fifty thousand dollar full reef tank with fish, like Ike's.



so I ask you, are we really talking about cycling science in this thread?

I am truly, seriously interested to know any links, articles or helpful input anyone has regarding cycling science. not cycling forum post arguments.

post something helpful, and relevant pls team.

if at any moment someone wants to leave a breadcrumb trail of reading here to indicate they gave deep prior thought on the matter I'm asking friendly let me see the work.

 

[92Miata]

What if its a bad batch of bottled bacteria that got cooked in the heat via transit? Now you've dumped a bottle of bacteria in a tank that's not going to function as intended and the fish and fellow aquarist won't be privy to whats coming unless they are really on top of the ammonia monitoring.

Bottled bacteria is pretty neutral smelling. A bottle of cooked and dead bacteria isn't going to be.

The only product I've ever seen fail is Dr. Tim's - and that's because, IMO, his goals aren't appropriate for cycling bacteria. He's trying to build robust colonies of bacteria that will survive long term - and that's just not what you need here. Cycling in reefs is an ephemeral thing - (as Aquabiomics data shows) - the bacteria we use to process ammonia (nitrosomonas) is rapidly overwhelmed by heterotrophs and within a couple months is only handling a small fraction of the ammonia load in a tank.

Cycling is to get ammonia under control for long enough that heterotrophs can take over. The more shelf stable products (like BioSpira) do that just as well as Dr. Tims - and are way less likely to fail.


Extended ammonia cycling (in combination with dry rock) creates really unbalanced conditions in a tank - and is part of why so many newbies have so much trouble. High nitrates with no phosphate is a terrible situation for heterotrophs.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

What affordable best fish should I get for cycling

At the request of some .i have a few questions:

Was your intention to use bacteria or not?
If yes, what type of bacteria did you get?
How big is your tank?
Are you using a refugium?
What type of lighting do you have?
What do you plan on having as your salinity?
What type of corals do you plan on having?
Are you using live rock or base rock?
How long has your tank been cycling?

Just be aware...I am going to have more questions of you once you answer these questions..because I need to know a lot more before I can answer your question.

 

[mijan]

Simply pointing out for clarification and nothing else. OP asked what fish to use for cycling, period. No discussion of bottled bacteria or any other supportive solution to convert

It's incredibly frustrating watching the same old 30 year old nonsense be pushed on every newbie who steps through the door, and then see them pushing it on the next one.

Modern bacterial solutions are really good. And most of the people running multi-week bottled bacteria cycles are doing it against the advice of the manufacturer of that bacteria. Even Dr. Tim's tells you to pour the stuff in and add fish.

My method:

Biospira day 1.
First fish day 3.


There is never any measurable ammonia. There is no risk to fish.

Yes. They're selling you 3 cents of ammonia for $4, a $49 ammonia checker, and a bunch of other unnecessary nonsense.

These are infomercials. They are designed to sell you things under the veneer of information.

If you watched the video they do exactly what you are proposing. Add bacteria and then add fish. Not sure what is so complicated about that unless you just like to comment without looking at what was posted.

 

[aSaltyKlown]

Serious questions.

What is the difference between fish in cycling and setting up a QT with no bio and monitoring ammonia?

I've never seen anyone say to stop hurting the fish in a QT that may not have any biofilter. Only to watch ammonia levels and do a WC. Yes, some add a bag or type of media, but wouldn't that be the same as using bottled bac?

No bottle bac, how long will it take to get a toxic level of ammonia in a 40-gal tank with a small fish? Surely it doesn't build up instantly. I don't think I have come across anything regarding this. I haven't looked either, thinking out loud.

Could a tank cycle without bottled bac by monitoring ammonia and doing a WC if needed to bring it down? Theoretically, it would be the same as a QT, the cycle may take longer as you reduce the ammonia, but it should still produce the same end result. Not sure if the reasoning is sound.

From my understanding, most of our test kits measure in TAN, however once converted, the story changes. Many on here blast API for always giving a false reading, is it really false, or is it not converted? Shouldn't there always be detectable ammonia in a tank? If there was none, how does the cycle continue? I'm generally curious. Do the waste and decay immediately convert to Nitrite once it is in the water column? API constantly measures .25 on many folks' tests. According to this chart, it is perfectly acceptable, at least until a PH of 8 and temp of 86. The chart does not go over a PH of 8, but this does paint a very different story that is not generally explained in most cycle questions.

Cycling seems to be the most misunderstood and understood topic on forums. I truly find it all fascinating to read, there are great points on both sides. I have always sat on the sidelines but figured I'd ask some questions.

 

[brandon429]

I've learned to always say 'reef displays' when yapping about cycling microbiology

It's a reference to rock stack modeling that we all copy

All these folks here with Quickdraw meme ability... even though haven't seen their tank/ they haven't seen mine we're all united anyway because we flow water fast across very high surface area rock stacks

We all keep the ratio going, from a pico reef to a 200 gallon/ we all stacked or arched some rocks

By rule the means everyone in reefing has grossly beyond what's needed to control the bioload amounts we keep, in scale


Quarantine systems must exclude rock and sand; those absorb meds

A qt requires the plastic or ceramic media so meds aren't absorbed and those aren't as efficient at nitrification

Plus they're not mid tank stacks, they're sequestered off in a filter and that takes time to pass all wastewater over the active surface area

By excluding surface area training in all cycling talks__/ articles/ podium discourses/ bottle bac sellers have created a high volume focus on the replenishment of bottle bacteria

No cycle has ever stalled or got starved out or any away after being established. Any posts you read for that claim are an nh4 misread where they expected zero

Seneye shows us tanks tend to run
002-.006 ppm nh3 as a rough pattern among thousands of posts, never zero

But old cycling rules directly told both you and I originally ammonia had to be zero to be safe and now we see it never runs zero where the respiration engine is running.

That was very helpful input to the thread I'm glad you posted

Live rock is so powerful at removing ammonia that for 50 straight pages in the sand rinse thread we remove everyone's sandbed instantly no ramp up, along with any filter media they have, and upon reassembly no mini crashes or full crashes happen. All seneye spot checks are still same turnover rates, even with half the prior surface area gone. You have to strip live rocks down tremendously to lose ammonia control in a reef tank


Ammonia is the most locked in param in reefing because we keep the current on. We never ever ever worry about ammonia in a display reef, we can worry about it legit in quarantine systems due to less efficient placement and type of media

 

[SpyC]

why is it so hard to get a simple link where someone has seen an owner of a digital ammonia kit posting about ammonia noncontrol

I have to get the passion writeups without links>

it replaces thought, consideration and effort to simply not show what's being touted as a standout risk.

nobody is going to post a single example, that's really quite strong evidence to the contrary I think.


if our hobby is dealing is a continued loss scenario for using fish with bottle bac, the directions on the bottle bac say you can use with fish->

then I'm expecting five or ten links of failed fish in cycles with bottle bac.


I bet we get zero, because this is emotion/not reality.

reality is that bottle bac cycling requires no thought, it's already been done for you.

applying what Jay shows is required to keep fish alive requires thought and prep and wait times, that's for sure.


can anyone reading in total anger here just simply find us one thread here in the new tanks forum where fish didn't live when added, can I see just one example?

today alone 10+ new examples will be added to the disease forum, I want to compare rates of expression among the two data sets. I bet this request really offends someone lol.

Ypu demand links then refuse to provide links confirming your view? Not very excellent of you

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

You can pee in your fish tank if you don't wanna add the bottled bacteria
D

 

[Reef Psychology]

Each response on this topis is incorrect, I mean literally 100% of them.

not that you should start with a fish, but ammonia burning isn't in play. that's fear made up; relayed among non seneye owners.

I realize everyone cares about fish but you're relaying to him a risk that has no data


let me ask it this way: which forum on this site has the most fish death

is it in the new tanks forum, where they're all cycling? is it in the disease forum?

can anyone here find a cycling tank example for a reef display where the fish were not carried and acted just fine when added with bottle bac?

old cycling science allows us to make up things that no seneye owner has ever reported, free ammonia burning a fish when bottle bac is used

anyone who watches seneye + bottle bac study threads see ammonia burning is never in play, for anyone. by continuing on cycling lore that is untrue, we kill more fish by never directing a new tanker to the sole forum on this site that shows how to disease prep a tank. aim the concern correctly: nobody has burned a fish with ammonia during cycling. they die eight months later of crypto no matter how you cycle-if you skip preps.

nearly all entrants in the disease help forum properly cycled their tank with ammonia and no fish.

Maybe you’re trying to be controversial or you’re just passionate, but I believe I’m not “100% incorrect“.

I said it would be cruel because first time marine keepers shouldn’t rely on quick start methods because it often prevents them from learning patients and getting familiar with the hobby; like learning to mix salts, keeping a stable environment, using test kits, studying fish types, researching cleanup crews, and perhaps avoiding tank disasters before they begin. Quick starting a tank is for seasoned reef keepers that know the pitfalls and potential hazards they will face in the months to come from using a bottle of bacteria.

Maybe I’m reading too much into your comment and if I am sorry, but I really do believe that people should progress slowly with their first few tank setups and do research before tossing the first fish in the tank. I think it raises their chances of success and reduces the likelihood of them killing fish from moving too fast.

Peace.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

You can pee in your fish tank if you don't wanna add the bottled bacteria
D

That’s my method!!!

 

[brandon429]

Where was your mention of disease preps, and the fact that ammonia burning isn’t the risk, for reasons we’ve covered several times

the crowd directly stated burning via ammonia is the harm, that’s not true/ its old incorrect science we are adjusting

we are adjusting groupthink with no precedent in digital measures= self assessment practice for cycle umps


I wasnt directly calling out you as much as I was calling out the crowd for agreeing with you to the point I could see it would go on for pages if we didn’t change course by getting folks to try and search for one link example of a failed cycle and post it a few pages ago.


this part:
mix salts, keeping a stable environment, using test kits, studying fish types, researching cleanup crews, and perhaps avoiding tank disasters


none of that is rectified by waiting one month vs starting on day one. Waiting for zero ammonia on api doesn’t resolve those challenges

Those challenges persist months into the game, they’re not relayed to cycling. Cycling is simple ammonia control and safe fish carry without being burned, everything past that is just reefing.

what I’m stating isn’t controversial it’s simply that ammonia burning isn’t in play, disease is, and nobody is discussing disease preps with new cyclers and in that the cycle umpires are killing the fish they hope to protect as a form of reefing irony.

we can’t skate lightly around the fact that without referencing what seneye reefs do, we can’t find truth in cycling from a handful of web cycle umps. We can only find the groupthink from 1998.

 

[Rmckoy]

Simply pointing out for clarification and nothing else. OP asked what fish to use for cycling, period. No discussion of bottled bacteria or any other supportive solution to convert ammonia.

So the answer being it’s 2022 not 1980 …. Using live fish is cruel