What is a fair PERCENT for selling on the new R2R market?

[revhtree]

Hey gang! Wow I missed some posts! Been super busy the past two days and didn't even realize I had more post in this thread. Like busy where I wasn't even surfing the forum busy. Anyway I got a text tonight and that's why I'm here. Sorry to leave you hanging. It's late on the East coast and I don't have time to address all your concerns tonight. Just let me start with this.

1. Thank you for your insight. Honestly if people hate this idea then I sure don't want to continue with it. That being said it's not dead yet which brings me to number two.

2. Maybe we have NO FEES for selling items. We never were going to have a fee for buying. That was never on the radar never heard of anything like that. I just want to streamline buying and selling to attract more people to the forum.

3. We were NOT ever going to do away with our market forum and the way you buy and sell there. We were going to have the option for you to use the new market or sell on the forum like you have always done.

4. It was NEVER about making money. I've been thinking about this market for several years. You want to know why I have even considered it? Of course you do. It's because I want to keep Reef2Reef viable in the upcoming years and adding a market built with hobbyists in mind would really help keep us growing we believe. The fees were going to start helping pay back the cost but I would do whatever it takes to keep our community growing. Yes it would be an investment for me because yes this forum is a business. It's my full time job along with being a pastor in which I work for zero pay.

5. R2R is a calling for me. The countless people, relationships, lives that we have been able to touch in and OUT of reefing is immeasurable. Not to mention what we have been able to do as a community for tragic situations, people in need and building an orphanage oversees. YEP we don't announce all the stuff like that because we don't believe in boasting about stuff like that. But I thought you might like to know in this situation to help answer more questions. You help build it.

I'll try and answer more questions in the next few days. We didn't add details to most of the market points because we're trying to guard those details a little from outside sources. I'm not trying to get my hands in the pockets of your sales.

Thanks for the comments and concerns. I take nothing lightly when it comes to this community and each and every post is read, will be read and considered.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Hey gang! Wow I missed some posts! Been super busy the past two days and didn't even realize I had more post in this thread. Like busy where I wasn't even surfing the forum busy. Anyway I got a text tonight and that's why I'm here. Sorry to leave you hanging. It's late on the East coast and I don't have time to address all your concerns tonight. Just let me start with this.

1. Thank you for your insight. Honestly if people hate this idea then I sure don't want to continue with it. That being said it's not dead yet which brings me to number two.

2. Maybe we have NO FEES for selling items. We never were going to have a fee for buying. That was never on the radar never heard of anything like that. I just want to streamline buying and selling to attract more people to the forum.

3. We were NOT ever going to do away with our market forum and the way you buy and sell there. We were going to have the option for you to use the new market or sell on the forum like you have always done.

3. It was NEVER about making money. I've been thinking about this market for several years. You want to know why I have even considered it? Of course you do. It's because I want to keep Reef2Reef viable in the upcoming years and adding a market built with hobbyists in mind would really help keep us growing we believe. The fees were going to start helping pay back the cost but I would do whatever it takes to keep our community growing. Yes it would be an investment for me because yes this forum is a business. It's my full time job along with being a pastor in which I work for zero pay.

4. R2R is a calling for me. The countless people, relationships, lives that we have been able to touch in and OUT of reefing is immeasurable. Not to mention what we have been able to do as a community for tragic situations, people in need and building an orphanage oversees. YEP we don't announce all the stuff like that because we don't believe in boasting about stuff like that. But I thought you might like to know in this situation to help answer more questions. You help build it.

I'll try and answer more questions in the next few days. We didn't add details to most of the market points because we're trying to guard those details a little from outside sources. I'm not trying to get my hands in the pockets of your sales.

Thanks for the comments and concerns. I take nothing lightly when it comes to this community and each and every post is read, will be read and considered.

Seek the Kingdom first, and all else will be added to us. He know what we need before we ask. The spirit pleads for us.. one day at a time

 

[revhtree]

Maybe we just create something that makes it easier to sell and you handle all your own business, shipping, payments, etc. but we add a new rating system to help identify problem sellers or buyers? Maybe we have a full system with all the bells and whistles and you can use it or not use. It will be your choice. You can buy, sell and trade the new or the old way? Lots to think about!

 

[revhtree]

And here is where we talked some about it last year: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-reef-classified-buy-sell-trade-system.310657/

 

[Antics]

Hey Rev,

Thanks so much for your detailed post on the subject/issue. I really enjoy when you give the community insight into what you're thinking or planning for R2R. You said you're thinking about the marketplace as an option for keeping R2R viable, but have you considered merchandise as a form of revenue? It's cool to get R2R gear during the partner drive, but I'm sure a lot of people would buy shirts, art, towels, etc. with the R2R logo etc. Have you done this in the past, or currently doing it? I haven't ever seen it referenced but I figure it would definitely be profitable and small scale enough for you or another individual to handle.

I'm also curious if you've considered forum account upgrades beyond the supporting/partner membership status. I've been a member on forums where people are willing to spend money just to change their username color, or give it an effect. I'm not saying you have to go that route but I think there is a ton of non-invasive monetization that could occur while being completely optional for the general public.

Just some general ideas I wanted to talk about since I was fairly critical of the fee/marketplace design without really offering specific alternatives that would be revenue generating.

Thanks

 

[NY_Caveman]

@revhtree , thank you for clarifying. That post answered several questions.

3. We were NOT ever going to do away with our market forum and the way you buy and sell there. We were going to have the option for you to use the new market or sell on the forum like you have always done.

This is the most important point for me. Perhaps others. If I sell I want to give a GREAT deal and not worry about fees. I have seen others post really cheap frags, even free equipment and gift cards (free gift cards? yep!). ROAK (random acts of kindness) are less frequent, but they happen and it is a great way to show community spirit.

In general I would suggest keeping any new endeavour far removed from what is already working so well (for users) on R2R. Perhaps a completely different R2R branded website for this auction idea. I left Facebook years ago as they tried to better monetize me and automate what they thought I would like (they were wrong).

Thanks for listening.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

In the past Ebay had more control because they owned PayPal. Now the companies are split up and the ability to control the selling process is diminished. I hope you find a way but I am less inclined to pay the fee on top of the sales tax every state is trying to collect for sales delivered into the respective states. Washington state is just an example of how to kill the Internet based businessman. Over 12000 different tax districts are now trying to figure out how to get their piece of the pie. No thanks the software alone to cover all those tax entities would cost about $250,000.00 per business. The sales on the Internet may get strangled by the state and federal tax over reach.

I would wait to see what your tax liabilities will be before investing in another market place like Amazon or Ebay.
.

 

[paphater]

I think this would only really make sense in selling of livestock where it's much harder to work with paypal on disputes. I was burned by a seller and really had to fight paypal to get my partial refund. In their mind the package arrived, they didn't care that the corals were shipped in condiment containers that had no water in them by the time the corals arrived, among other things. When I was working with paypal I had to provide a 3rd party input that the corals weren't shipped properly and couldn't be "repaired." I think it would be reasonable to charge a very small fee to both parties to provide that service, whether that be attached to the sale or through an annual or monthly fee. Like 25 cents a sale or a dollar a month. The only real service that would be required would be to offer the 3rd party opinion when disputes arise. It would also be nice to initiate some sort of standard shipping policy that users would agree to. I think the current dry goods market place is already good as is and I wouldn't want any added fees.

Either way I think the rating system definitely needs to be revamped. The seller that burned me got a few more people after me, that I know of, before he was banned (at least I think he was).

 

[KJAG]

For me, this buried any doubts about what this forum stands for. In my previous post, I stated I wouldn't rush to assumptions, because indeed, it sounded like a cash grab. It wasn't and I'm glad I didn't. Ill continue to support the forum, as Ive done for years, and apparently most here have as well. (I havent even sold on here for maybe 5 years.) Although I have to say, a little shocking that some were basically pleading, "Yes! Please charge us an extra 5%!, and Staff, of all people, coming in here trying to sell us on the fact that "After all, this is a For Profit venture. Just accept it." That one blew my mind. It's good to see the site is still true and there isn't something more sinister taking place.

 

[sailplanes2]

/out

 

[ontop27]

My issue is shipping... i sold lights the other day for $400 shipped. It cost $80 to ship it. If i listed it for 320 + $80 in shipping i know i woukd have had zero hits because in their mind the light is then worth $320 and they are going to try and find it closer. I unfortunately happened to find a buyer that was on the other side of the states which screwed me on the $400 shipped aspect.

 

[siggy]

FIRST Way to go Rev for setting up the Orphanage and doing the Lords work.

I am currently selling many items in the classifieds and all the PMs and alerts gets messy real quick, and I may have offended a buyer because he wanted it first but it ended up going to another. So there are some things that could be improved upon...... like a separate PM/alert system ( just one ) exclusive to that forum.....A buy it now w/mandatory check out ( first to pay wins ) and with that shipping calculator indicator/tracking info to print labels. Oh cant forget the Live stock auctions
.... I realize that this costs money to set up and maintain....

 

[ontop27]

I do like first check out wins..

 

[Julian A McRae]

I definately like this idea I think anywhere from 3-5% of a sale is definatey fair up to probably around $40-50?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@revhtree,
I do have a concern for your business model as well. Once you control a market place you incur liability. Both the state and federal government will want more of a say on how you do business and that will raise the cost and complexity.

I also think you should look for more ways to separate yourself from Facebook as a way to drive more interest to your site. Facebook is not allowed to many government employees....just think about that for a minute. You drive all your promotions with a requirement to like this or that on Facebook. Some of us refuse due to our knowledge about how Facebook, Twitter, and others operate. I had a communications professor give our class quite a disturbing look at both the individuals and the tactics used by Facebook in particular. The professor works in IT on an international basis and teaches on the side. Just because you can does not mean you should. I had a teacher that used to say a word to the wise is sufficient.

I think you have a great thing going now! I hope it continues!

 

[revhtree]

@revhtree,
I do have a concern for your business model as well. Once you control a market place you encure liability. Both the state and federal government will want more of a say on how you do business and that will raise the cost and complexity.

I also think you should look for more ways to separate yourself from Facebook as a way to drive more interest to your site. Facebook is not allowed to many government employees....just think about that for a minute. You drive all your promotions with a requirement to like this or that on Facebook. Some of us refuse due to our knowledge about how Facebook, Twitter, and others operate. I had a communications professor give our class quite a disturbing look at both the individuals and the tactics used by Facebook in particular. The professor works in IT on an international basis and teaches on the side. Just because you can does not mean you should. I had a teacher that used to say a word to the wise is sufficient.

I think you have a great thing going now! I hope it continues!

I hear you and thanks. One thing to note though is that most contest we do now does NOT require you to use Facebook. Most contests now give you the option as an extra entry.

 

[revhtree]

I asked what a fair percent is so maybe that fair percent is no percent. Been doing a lot of thinking. I don't want to do anything to hurt this community.

 

[Reefrookie220]

I'll go against the grain here and say 2.5% or $20 whichever is lower.

We all hate fees, as it is we're already losing out in fees for using online services like Paypal...etc. I'd like to see fees (if we end up with them) here on R2R be minimal, but still sufficient to pay for both creation and maintenance. I don't have the numbers, but I would guess just by the number of sale threads created a day, 2.5%/$20 would add up pretty quick.

If the numbers get silly people will find other places, hence the move away from ebay to facebook groups...etc.

I agree and was thinking the same number at 2.5% for transactions $200 and under, maybe 4% on transactions $350+

While people avoid fees in general, I feel it could also keep the “budget reefers” in the game simply because sellers would look to put things at these price points to avoid”extra” fees. Plus the ability to put in support tickets and file claims(and the staff to deal with them) won’t be cheap.

And let’s face it. 250k for putting the system in place has got to be regained somehow, and can we put a price on the collective knowledge and advice gained just by simply making an account.

 

[JaimeAdams]

If I had to lose 5% to be able to ship over night for under $50 instead of closer to $100 I think that is a win win. My biggest hurdle of selling extra frags in the insane shipping cost even with the shipyouraquatics price point.

 

[Brew12]

I've been reading through this and have some thoughts, but I want to hop on my soap box about fees for a bit.

It's human nature, we hate paying fees and taxes.

Free shipping is routinely offered not because it is good for the consumer, but because it is good for the vendor. Shipping is never free, it is built into the cost of the products sold. If you order one or two small items you may come out ahead. If you order 3 or more products, you will pay more than if shipping were charged separately.

Remember when buying gas with cash was cheaper than with a credit card? Yup, that was to cover the credit card transaction fee which is typically around 2%. Now that fee is built into everything we buy whether we use a credit card or not. How often do people complain about that?

Airline companies ran some trials and found that passengers felt better about paying $40+ more for a ticket without a $25 baggage fee.

Car insurance companies want to raise your rates if you get in an accident, right? You can stop that by purchasing accident forgiveness. Let's think about this one.... the car insurance company is getting you to pay a higher rate NOW instead of waiting to raise that rate after your first accident. And we LIKE IT!!!

If we are being rational with ourselves, are we actually going to say that a 5% fee built into the sales price (up to a certain value, anyway) will even be noticed on goods where the value is so arbitrary? When selling used goods, my experience is that the asking price is rarely paid. Often the agreement is made for 20% or more lower than the asking price.

How irrational is our dislike? I have a coworker who is near retirement age. He started working for the company 30 years ago at an entry level position. Pretty much in that same position today. When he hired in, he signed up to purchase $50 a week in company stock because he felt pressured by HR. He never kept up with it. One day he got a $19k check in the mail and he was mad because he didn't ask to sell any stock. Except that his stock wasn't sold. It's a dividend stock and the plan recently changed so the dividend was no longer re-invested. Yup, that $19k was his quarterly dividend check. ;Greedy Do you think he retired? Nope. His wife has passed away and they never had kids. His only request to our company provided financial adviser was to make it so he didn't have to pay taxes on his income. Seriously. Multi-millionaire and his biggest concern is getting out of under $20k per year in taxes. ;Wacky;Wacky;Wacky

Ok... I feel better. Thanks for letting me rant.

@revhtree You can skip the above. If you do feel this is worth pursuing, and you haven't already, take some time talking to a lawyer. The liabilities R2R would take on may not be worth the increase in site traffic.

I will admit, I have no interest in the marketplace. I have an attic full of gently used aquarium stuff to prove it. My opinion is that most of us on here because of the sense of community and the vast wealth of knowledge and opinions that are here to be shared. It's like an extended family in many ways. While I could not care less about fees being charged, I do worry that it could cause the family friendly feel of the site to be diminished. That is why most of us are here. I firmly believe in the policy that you don't sell stuff to family, nothing good will come of it. If you sell your sister a car and it breaks down it can damage that relationship. If you do proceed with a marketplace, please make sure that some precautions are taken to ensure this risk is minimized.