What is ACTUALLY going on with Hawaii fish?

[Deinonych]

^^^
Well said. The anti-aquarium folks have a philosophical problem with collecting ornamental fish. There really is no interest on their part in whether collection is sustainable or not.

 

[Mark Gray]

Following.

Personally I think this is a fair offer so we know. Any idea how the examination of the recived data is vetted?


I'd like to have fact checks not officials and experts interpretations or spin.

Boy that's for sure especially if the government is involved

 

[mort]

I don't know which one is more problematic than the other - in either case catching a few for the aquarium trade doesn't equal a few. Very few make it successfully into our tanks let alone to the reseller. .

As i'm not from Hawaii and am practically as far away as you can get from there, I have to rely on what I read and maybe a decade or so ago I read about how the Achilles tang population was apparently being threatened by the aquarium trade. Later I found out it was most likely linked to locals spear fishing for them. There was no bag limit and I believe limited protection areas from spear fishing, whereas you had bag limits for ornamental collections and less places you could legally fish.

I know my last dive trip there about a year and a half ago was better with regards to corals and fish population than previous dive trips. Could just be time of year, could be something is actually working, could be maybe I just had better vision. I really don't know but the reefs did look healthier this go around than previous.

You might have been diving in one of the controlled areas where no collection is allowed. We have them around our coast and they really produce wildlife havens where nature returns. This however is just one of the reasons why the Hawaiian fishery is so well managed. The no go zones allow fish to repopulate and spread for sustainable harvest elsewhere. You also see years where many fish over produce and settle, I seem to remember an abundance of Kleins butterflies settling a few years back.

 

[Deinonych]

Proof of burden is a two way street. Just last year I was diving in Hawaii. Dive master captured a baby speckled butterfly. Ascended, crappy safety stop, boarded boat, dumped fish inside a 5 gallon bucket of seawater. I board, look in the bucket, and what do you think I saw? Said butterfly on its side. I spoke to him more has a diver than an aquarist and suggested he put it back. He replied no. I say ok, not worth the trouble so then I ask what size tank does he have or where is it going. His reply...a 40 breeder. What do you think happened next? 20 minute or so boat ride back to port has I exit, leaving no tip, I pass the bucket. Speckled butterfly is no longer alive. It didn't recover from the collection depth to surface and or temperature difference at surface compared to the 90ft depth he caught it at. How do I know? I was part of his group so I saw when it was netted. Much to his surprise I called local authorities after leaving so they would know the situation.

No, that isn't the norm. No, it isn't in a google search. But it is based on experience. We all have it. Mine is what it is. All good and well like I said.

Note/edit: Fish was yellow, butterfly shape, with dots - I may be wrong on the exact type...

Sounds like a Milletseed Butterflyfish, Chaetodon miliaris. I'm curious which dive company you were diving with. We go to Hawai'i every year (mostly Maui, Kaua'i and Hawai'i Island) and I've never seen any dive company allow this sort of behavior.

 

[Maritimer]

Part of the problem that I see here is that any legitimate researcher is likely to have a very small budget - just barely enough to get the research done, and maybe published in an obscure journal that's purchased by a few universities and government agencies. Those facts go just that far, no matter what story they tell.

Organizations like "For The Fishes" don't need such heavily researched facts - all they need is a single photograph, or one person who tells them "Oh, yeah - lots of 'em died", and their rather larger budget doesn't have to do anything but trumpet that from the rooftops. (If you're using "The Dodo" as a source, by the way, you might as well be using PETA. They're cut from the same cloth, near as I can tell.)

The emotional message, as has been pointed out, is echoing loudly, while the truth whispers from a dusty and rarely-visited corner of the basement.

~Bruce

 

[User1]

Sounds like a Milletseed Butterflyfish, Chaetodon miliaris. I'm curious which dive company you were diving with. We go to Hawai'i every year (mostly Maui, Kaua'i and Hawai'i Island) and I've never seen any dive company allow this sort of behavior.

Thank you for the correct name. I actually used that to search just now and it is. In fact, I would love to have one in my aquarium / mixed reef if it was possible. Anyway to your point about the dive company I will check my dive log. I usually have one of the dive masters note my log and/or notes with the dive in case I want to get advanced certifications. I may not have this time though because of the collection issue and attitude.

This particular stay was on Oahu. I recall sneaking in two days of diving or about 6 dives total using two different companies. I'll also ask my daughter if she remembers. Like I noted earlier though this time around the diving was much better with regards to fish I saw and some of the corals. Usually I am not a huge fan of diving in that area because it is barren or appears to me anyway. I just like diving in warmer water rather than the colder waters I normally dive down in Monterey, Ca. Anytime the water is 70 it is a treat :D

Thank you again for the name. That is the fish and I would like to have one, or a few of the others I saw in the area, for sure. That is why I am getting a Kole tang :)

 

[drawman]

Thank you for the correct name. I actually used that to search just now and it is. In fact, I would love to have one in my aquarium / mixed reef if it was possible. Anyway to your point about the dive company I will check my dive log. I usually have one of the dive masters note my log and/or notes with the dive in case I want to get advanced certifications. I may not have this time though because of the collection issue and attitude.

This particular stay was on Oahu. I recall sneaking in two days of diving or about 6 dives total using two different companies. I'll also ask my daughter if she remembers. Like I noted earlier though this time around the diving was much better with regards to fish I saw and some of the corals. Usually I am not a huge fan of diving in that area because it is barren or appears to me anyway. I just like diving in warmer water rather than the colder waters I normally dive down in Monterey, Ca. Anytime the water is 70 it is a treat :D

Thank you again for the name. That is the fish and I would like to have one, or a few of the others I saw in the area, for sure. That is why I am getting a Kole tang :)

Yeah the milletseed butterflyfish is very beautiful. Sucks that this diver was so careless.

 

[Deinonych]

Thank you for the correct name. I actually used that to search just now and it is. In fact, I would love to have one in my aquarium / mixed reef if it was possible. Anyway to your point about the dive company I will check my dive log. I usually have one of the dive masters note my log and/or notes with the dive in case I want to get advanced certifications. I may not have this time though because of the collection issue and attitude.

This particular stay was on Oahu. I recall sneaking in two days of diving or about 6 dives total using two different companies. I'll also ask my daughter if she remembers. Like I noted earlier though this time around the diving was much better with regards to fish I saw and some of the corals. Usually I am not a huge fan of diving in that area because it is barren or appears to me anyway. I just like diving in warmer water rather than the colder waters I normally dive down in Monterey, Ca. Anytime the water is 70 it is a treat :D

Thank you again for the name. That is the fish and I would like to have one, or a few of the others I saw in the area, for sure. That is why I am getting a Kole tang :)

They are beautiful fish, and mostly reef safe to boot. My personal favorite is the Oval Butterflyfish (Chaetodon lunulatus). Unfortunately, they are obligate corallivores and are best left in the ocean.

Last summer, I saw a pair of Tinker's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon tinkeri) off of Ni'ihau. I wanted to take a photo, but they were down around 40 msw and I was on Nitrox. :(

 

[User1]

They are beautiful fish, and mostly reef safe to boot. My personal favorite is the Oval Butterflyfish (Chaetodon lunulatus). Unfortunately, they are obligate corallivores and are best left in the ocean.

Could you clarify mostly reef safe? Is that one of those user discretion advised? :) If truth be told I wasn't aware there was a remote chance to add one. Now I'm going to go do some more reading and see if I want to chance it. You are right - that Oval is pretty.

 

[Deinonych]

In general, butterflyfish *may* pick at corals and other sessile invertebrates. Some are more prone to do it than others.

 

[saltyhog]

They are beautiful fish, and mostly reef safe to boot. My personal favorite is the Oval Butterflyfish (Chaetodon lunulatus). Unfortunately, they are obligate corallivores and are best left in the ocean.

Last summer, I saw a pair of Tinker's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon tinkeri) off of Ni'ihau. I wanted to take a photo, but they were down around 40 msw and I was on Nitrox. :(

There are some disadvantages to Nitrox. :D

C. lunulatus is beautiful, I like lunula a lot as well, but my favorite is another obligate corallivore....C. ornatissimus

 

[Deinonych]

There are some disadvantages to Nitrox. :D

C. lunulatus is beautiful, I like lunula a lot as well, but my favorite is another obligate corallivore....C. ornatissimus

Indeed. C. ornatissimus is everywhere on Hawaii Island...less so on the other islands. Always interesting to see how the population densities differ on each of the islands.

As much as I love to photograph reef fish, nothing beats a nice fat Tiger Shark in open water. :)

 

[saltyhog]

They kept telling us there was a big tiger shark hanging around the harbor in Kona but we never saw it. Yes ornatissiumus was everywhere on the Big Island but zero Flame wrasse.

 

[User1]

Indeed. C. ornatissimus is everywhere on Hawaii Island...less so on the other islands. Always interesting to see how the population densities differ on each of the islands.

As much as I love to photograph reef fish, nothing beats a nice fat Tiger Shark in open water. :)

Nice video, thanks for sharing. During one of our dives there, I forget the wreck but it was a small ship, we saw a couple pass by. My daughter isn't a huge fan of diving with sharks or if they are near. Last time she dove under a cave and there was a white or black tip under there sleeping and startled her. She tends to run into those issues more than me for some reason and she is my dive partner. Last outing in Monterey a sea otter kept dive bombing her. It was just playful and curious but she didn't find it amusing I guess since it went on for about 20 minutes. I just figured maybe the two are of similar age in otter to human years :)

And yeah - that shark was pretty healthy!

 

[User1]

There are some disadvantages to Nitrox. :D

C. lunulatus is beautiful, I like lunula a lot as well, but my favorite is another obligate corallivore....C. ornatissimus

Well, you both did it now. I really need to just try and get one or two of these into my mixed reef. It is cycling now but after it matures and I transfer tanks, maybe within a year I can try.

Regarding Nitrox - yes, disadvantages aside I sure do feel better after the dives and not has tired. I was going to avoid nitrox cert all together but my brother in law signed up and I followed along. I have to say I'm glad I did.

 

[Deinonych]

Regarding Nitrox - yes, disadvantages aside I sure do feel better after the dives and not has tired. I was going to avoid nitrox cert all together but my brother in law signed up and I followed along. I have to say I'm glad I did.

I dive with Nitrox for the added safety benefit. We usually do multiple days of diving in a row when we are on vacation, so the extra safety margin gives me peace of mind. If I know I'm going to do a deep (30+m) dive, I'll switch to air.

 

[Zack K]

Well, you both did it now. I really need to just try and get one or two of these into my mixed reef. It is cycling now but after it matures and I transfer tanks, maybe within a year I can try.

Regarding Nitrox - yes, disadvantages aside I sure do feel better after the dives and not has tired. I was going to avoid nitrox cert all together but my brother in law signed up and I followed along. I have to say I'm glad I did.

Unless you are willing to put in a large amount of time or effort into getting the Ornate Butterfly to eat things other than coral, I would suggest leaving him out. The Raccoon Butterfly will be ALOT easier, but still can be difficult.

-Zack, who has done lots of work with Butterflies

 

[User1]

Unless you are willing to put in a large amount of time or effort into getting the Ornate Butterfly to eat things other than coral, I would suggest leaving him out. The Raccoon Butterfly will be ALOT easier, but still can be difficult.

-Zack, who has done lots of work with Butterflies

Thanks Zack. While pretty I wasn't looking at a Ornate. I was looking more at the Milletseed Butterflyfish which I'm guessing may be just has tricky. Maybe not - no idea. I am still about a year out anyway because it still has some maturing to do and I've not even moved my 40 breeder to the new tank in question. It will only fill out a little bit of the 210 I have in progress now. I'll be moving some large hammers, 6 rose bubble tip anemone's, kenya trees, golden leather, xenia, and some green button polyps.

 

[Zack K]

Thanks Zack. While pretty I wasn't looking at a Ornate. I was looking more at the Milletseed Butterflyfish which I'm guessing may be just has tricky. Maybe not - no idea. I am still about a year out anyway because it still has some maturing to do and I've not even moved my 40 breeder to the new tank in question. It will only fill out a little bit of the 210 I have in progress now. I'll be moving some large hammers, 6 rose bubble tip anemone's, kenya trees, golden leather, xenia, and some green button polyps.

You will have better success with the milletseed Butterfly due to the fact that they are planktonivores vs coralivore. Still a tricky one to get eating none the less. They also ship poorly.
-Zack

 

[User1]

@Zack Klabunde your bringing me down dude - stop with the negative waves already :) Just kidding. Really, I am. It is good information to know honestly so I just don't buy something that wouldn't have a chance or at least knowing it before hand to prepare. Like I mentioned I'm still about a year off before I'd add one - and that is "if". Seems like one of the more known reef friendly butterfly is the pyramid. It is nice, but I prefer the millesteed. Thanks again, everyone, for the education and stuff for future reading (regarding butterfly fish).