What is wrong with my CBB's gill?!?

[Biff0rz]

Assuming its a parasite which we don't know for sure, here are the possible outcomes if you leave it in there and not take proactive steps

1) It might overwhelm and kill your CBB.
2) It will make babies and infect your whole tank.
3) It might just die off on its own.
4) The CBB will survive but with the impairment and increased respiration.

At least do the clove oil method to get a closer look at the fish gill in your hands. With a magnifying glass so we know what we are dealing with.

Faced with similar outcomes, I chose to get it off of my fish as per my post above. The diagnoses was done by the vet, although I had to do the procedure. The cost was too high.

Take the CBB and put it into a QT. Maybe observe him for a while. If you can observe it closer in this isolated QT, try some praziquantel liquid form first. Don't use it in the main tank. Bad for some inverts. https://www.liveaquaria.com/product...-dYnLQabQI8sHXfnGMwDD09reTnk4CNwaAnhyEALw_wcB

Before I decided to attempt to be a fish surgeon and tried the clove oil method, I first tried prazipro , but the worm wouldn't budge. Not sure if it the medicine worked and just in a deathgrip or stuck, but it was still clinging to the inside of the gill and his tail was still protruding past the gill cover. Except for the differences in the fact that I don't see a long tail coming out of your CBB's gill compared to my red arowana, they both exhibited a bulge in the gill, meaning that something is in there. Might be some parasitical isopod? I've seen some in fish's gills and some on bodies of fish through the years and they definitely cause a large bump and won't let the gill collapse totally when respiring if it was lodged in there.

Then in the same QT tank. I did the procedure. After sedation, I took forceps and gently lifted the gill and pulled the worm from as far to its head as I could and it came off.

Here is an example of a parasitic isopod in a fish gill: I don't think yours is that big, if it even IS an isopod.

This is assuming its a parasite in the first place! But there seems to be a foreign body in that right side gill. The sedation is completely harmless to the fish. Good luck Dr Biff!

Heck, it might not even be a parasite. It might be like this kid shoving up lego blocks up his nose. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53819306

Thanks! I'm going to try and get some white light video for better visibility, realizing the blues are making it harder to see what's in there.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Keep us posted Dr.
Maybe livestream to the internet so we can see your operation in process, Dr.

Hey! I thought of a good idea. Get a skunk cleaner shrimp. I'm sure his surgical skills are better than ours. , if it is a parasite.

I've seen some of my fish open their gills to him and he kept shoving his claws in there and pulling out things to eat, in my past tank.

 

[Biff0rz]

Keep us posted Dr.
Maybe livestream to the internet so we can see your operation in process, Dr.

Hey! I thought of a good idea. Get a skunk cleaner shrimp. I'm sure his surgical skills are better than ours. , if it is a parasite.

I've seen some of my fish open their gills to him and he kept shoving his claws in there and pulling out things to eat, in my past tank.

I haven't had much luck w non shelled inverts... My trigger and funny enough cbb view them as feed. Lol.

Here's a vid in white light, watch it in slow mo. It's feeding time so he's more frisky.



I'm not sure my wife will hold the camera while I do this but I'll try and video it. This has me so anxious. I really do not want to hurt him or have to start over with a new cbb.. Ugh.

Does everyone agree this isn't some growth on him?

 

[ReeferSamster]

I really do not want to hurt him or have to start over with a new cbb.. Ugh.

Yea, but what do you have to lose? I advised the procedure if you notice him degrading in condition. Or it might be too late at the point. If he was going to go downhill anyway, might as well go down swinging.

Does everyone agree this isn't some growth on him?

Yes. Not only the increased respiration, but also that bump. There seems to be something there, I could swear I saw something with a mass with a black spot? in your first video. I don't know for sure.

Anyway, I'm not a professional vet. I'm just trying to help. The primary goal of sedation is for observation. Just to find out what it is. If it happens to be a parasite, great. Pluck it out. If not (maybe its cancer?) then all you have lost is a few bucks with clove oil. Also, if it happens to be a parasite, and the host died, then chances are the parasite will move to find another fish, or worse yet release lots of babies.

Or the other option is, is to ride it out and let nature be. Maybe he can survive with whatever it is. I would have left this alone if he was respiring normally, but the increased gill movement in your first video was concerning.

 

[rmorris_14]

Following and sending all my good outcome vibes I can your way.

 

[SlugSnorter]

There seems to be something foreign in his right gill.
His respiration is also increased, judging by the rate of movement on the gill.

If your CBB shows signs of any deterioration, loss of appetite or lethargy, and you feel is worth it to spend 10 bucks on, try this.

I'd pull him out to a QT tank with the absolute minimal amount of water, just enough so he doesn't feel panicky and get 100% clove oil like this: https://www.amazon.com/Clove-100-Therapeutic-Grade-Essential/dp/B00PM7S5R6 .This is not the brand I used. I don't remember what brand it was. But just make sure you get one that is 100% clove oil.
An artificial version is tricaine methanesulfonate, but I don't have specific experience with this. It was another suggestion by my vet. I'm assuming there are instructions if you want to use this.
https://pentairaes.com/tricainer-s-topical-anesthetics-ms-222.html

The procedure is a lot less scary than it sounds. I've had to do this with a freshwater Red Arowana dragonfish a long long time ago to try to solve a similar issue. He ended up with some kind of small parasitic worm latched onto the inner side of the gill plate. I'm not claiming this is the actual diagnosis in your case, but this is only for further examination and potential resolution, if you really care about the fish enough. In my case, this was needed on a fish worth thousands of dollars. Yes I was a little anxious, but I needed to do it. The vet was going to charge me much more than what the fish was worth and I didn't have the funds at that time. I was gratuitous that at least he wrote down the following instructions to use at my own risk, which turned out well.

If you are going the clove oil route, put 5 drops, per gallon of water of the qt tank (hence, why minimal amount of water in QT as per above): a drop is sized from a disposable 3 mL pipette like this
Wait a while, of about 8 minutes. The CBB's gills will start to slow and he will lose balance and seem to tip over to the side. If not, then drip 2 more drops, per 8 or so minutes until the fish is listless and completely floating around on its side. The gills will still be moving. I'm sorry for the crude estimation, but I can't tell you the exact science of exact dosage of clove oil. All I know is from my vet's instructions and my one time anecdotal experience. This amount of time and drops is safe to use until the fish is sedated.

After tranquilization, see if there is any foreign body on the gill. Make sure you have a forcep or something similar to open the gill flap. Whatever it is, from the video, there appears to be a foreign body in the gill. I am not a vet and this is not professional diagnosis whatsoever. I'm just trying to help.

I know what it feels like to have something go bad with a long time fish and at worst case it would have cost you 10 bucks of clove oil. What have you got to lose, if the your CBB shows signs of futher deterioration and eventual loss? This operation was a success on my Red Arrowana had a long long time ago. Good luck!

isn't clove oil used to euthanize fish?

 

[Biff0rz]

isn't clove oil used to euthanize fish?

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so maybe I shouldn't do this?!?! Why not just pull the fish and work on him without the oil?

 

[SlugSnorter]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so maybe I shouldn't do this?!?! Why not just pull the fish and work on him without the oil?

you'd likely kill him or hurt him further as an unsedated fish will thrash around.

 

[Biff0rz]

you'd likely kill him or hurt him further as an unsedated fish will thrash around.

fair...so how do I sedate him safely? Esp if clove oil will kill him?

 

[SlugSnorter]

Yea, but what do you have to lose? I advised the procedure if you notice him degrading in condition. Or it might be too late at the point. If he was going to go downhill anyway, might as well go down swinging.

Yes. Not only the increased respiration, but also that bump. There seems to be something there, I could swear I saw something with a mass with a black spot? in your first video. I don't know for sure.

Anyway, I'm not a professional vet. I'm just trying to help. The primary goal of sedation is for observation. Just to find out what it is. If it happens to be a parasite, great. Pluck it out. If not (maybe its cancer?) then all you have lost is a few bucks with clove oil. Also, if it happens to be a parasite, and the host died, then chances are the parasite will move to find another fish, or worse yet release lots of babies.

Or the other option is, is to ride it out and let nature be. Maybe he can survive with whatever it is. I would have left this alone if he was respiring normally, but the increased gill movement in your first video was concerning.

why not try copper in QT first?

 

[ReeferSamster]

isn't clove oil used to euthanize fish?

Anything that can be used as sedation, can be used for euthanization.
The instructions are safe values regarding timing for estimation of fish weight to dose ratio until sedation. Stop the dosage as soon as you see the fish tip over to the side and immobile, allowing you to handle him for further observation.

I only suggested this because it's something I'd do myself (and have done) given @Biff0rz circumstance. Instead of worrying about it everyday whether or not the CBB's condition will deteriotate.

Or I'd feel bad knowing I could have at least tried something spending $10 on a fish worth ten times that value, aside from sentimental value. He's had the fish for over a year and can hand feed him.

I mentioned earlier to try a cleaner shrimp in a QT tank away from the trigger fish, or copper as @SlugSnorter ( LoL do you really snort slugs? How is the experience?) suggested before trying the sedation method. Remember the sedation is primarily for observation, and potential removal, because it certainly seems like a foreign object.

But I would do something, anything proactive, anything rather than just wait. I don't like waiting in such circumstance worrying about a sentimental fish that I can hand feed.

It also helps you to learn about fish and potentially grow wiser in the hobby.

 

[SlugSnorter]

fair...so how do I sedate him safely? Esp if clove oil will kill him?

I think 0.05 mL of clove oil per 500 mL of water but idk

 

[rmorris_14]

I found this thread about it. I liked it because it seemed thorough. I would let other with more experience chime in about whether it’s listed out correctly though

To sedate fish using clove oil

A few people have requested that i post the directions i used when sedating my fish for a quick out of tank operation recently. So here is the original article i got from the ‘Goldfish and Aquarium Board’. I must stress that i did not write this article, i'm just sharing it. "To sedate with clove...

www.aceforums.com.au

 

[Unitylover]

yes, too much clove oil kills, a small amount will sedate

 

[ReeferSamster]

I found this thread about it. I liked it because it seemed thorough. I would let other with more experience chime in about whether it’s listed out correctly though

To sedate fish using clove oil

A few people have requested that i post the directions i used when sedating my fish for a quick out of tank operation recently. So here is the original article i got from the ‘Goldfish and Aquarium Board’. I must stress that i did not write this article, i'm just sharing it. "To sedate with clove...

www.aceforums.com.au

Seems much more methodical than my post. That guy has waaay more experience than me. I only did it once. Not sure about all that stuff about using a pillowcase is necessary. Is he advising you to remove the fish from QT and onto a towel with a pillowcase? I'd be uncomfortable removing the fish from the qt, I'd rather check him out inside a low level of water, so that it is easier to lift the gill cover. When outside the water, you might damage the gill cover while raising it. The gill cover will "stick" outside in air, due to residual water viscosity. When submerged under water, the gill cover will be easier to raise, IMO.

I pulled the worm out while the arowana was still in the water and did not remove him. I thought it would have been easier to raise the gill plate while he was laying over to the side still submerged in water. Note that he did squirm very weakly, but I was able to handle him. I just sedated him enough for me to able to hold him, raise gill plate and pull the worm out. Maybe complete sedation would have been better, but I wanted to be done as fast as possible. I first tried a tweezer, but I was worried that the sharp tip would damage him. So I used a forcep/tweezer that you use for stamp collecting. It had a rounded tip.

But these are only suggestions. I'm not a vet. Its just something I would do given the OP's circumstance. If I thought I saw something stuck on the gill and increased respiration on a beloved fish. I'd do something about it. I did.

 

[Biff0rz]

So - let's assume I sedate him, get him out, and am able to remove whatever it is. How to I in-sedate him? I was thinking to have a 5g bucket w heated water and an air stone, place him in there to revive then back in the tank. Thoughts? I'm super nervous about this still.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Just use his old tank water. He'll eventually snap out of it.
Are you going to remove him from the QT tank? I'd just do it right in there. Keep it simple and minimize handling as much as possible.

I think its easier to open the gill with round tip stamp collecting forceps. This is what I used to lift the gill cover: rubber rounded tip forceps

Also, try these before the clove oil in the QT tank
1) cleaner shrimp in QT tank? (get him out before anything below) (edit: your copperbad eats clkeaner shrimp!? Wow.)
2) Praziprol antiparasitic meds.
3) Copper.

After all of the above being sure to use new tank water, then try the clove oil route.

He's just going to sleep for you to see what it is we are dealing with. The consensus was that there is a foreign object. The procedure is a lot less scary than it sounds. When he's fully sedated, you can flop him around. That area where I circled is definately the first thing you should observe after lifting the gill flap.

I'd remove all tprior water from the suggestion above and use fresh saltwater when starting the Clove oil. I'd actually use the water from the main tank so we minimize any other water parameter variables for stability purposes. Keep everything as stable as possible.

 

[Biff0rz]

Just use his old tank water. He'll eventually snap out of it.
Are you going to remove him from the QT tank? I'd just do it right in there. Keep it simple and minimize handling as much as possible.

I think its easier to open the gill with round tip stamp collecting forceps. This is what I used to lift the gill cover: rubber rounded tip forceps

He's just going to sleep for you to see what exactly its. The consensus was that there is a foreign object. The procedue is a lot less scary than it sounds. When he's fully sedated, you can flop him around.

Also, try these before the clove oil:
1) cleaner shrimp in QT tank? (get him out after the start of cloveoil)
2) Praziprol antiparasitic meds.
3) Copper.

I'd remove all that and use fresh saltwater when starting the Clove oil. I'd actually use the water from the main tank so we minimize any other water parameter variables. Keep everything as stable as possible.

I was going to set up a 2.5g tank with the oil and water from the tank. I did plan to remove him from it because I don't think I can reach in and work on him effectively. I have a lot of tweezers, I planned to lift it up and see if I can dislodge it gently. Maybe take some pics - I am not sure on how high I can raise his gill. After I am done I was going to put him in a recovery tank so I can hold him upright and get water flowing over the gills and revive him, then, place him in the display again.

 

[ReeferSamster]

I was going to set up a 2.5g tank with the oil and water from the tank. I did plan to remove him from it because I don't think I can reach in and work on him effectively. I have a lot of tweezers, I planned to lift it up and see if I can dislodge it gently. Maybe take some pics - I am not sure on how high I can raise his gill. After I am done I was going to put him in a recovery tank so I can hold him upright and get water flowing over the gills and revive him, then, place him in the display again.

Alright, wishing you the best of luck! May the Force be with you.
Have you thought of the other less invasive ideas first? Praziprol, Copper etc.

 

[Biff0rz]

Alright, wishing you the best of luck! May the Force be with you.
Have you thought of the other less invasive ideas first? Praziprol, Copper etc.

I could do both of those (not sure about at the same time?) but I question if it'll do anything...